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...qui reti implicatus est

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...qui reti implicatus est

Postby pmda » Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:59 pm

Still revising vocabulary in LLPSI pars 1.

In Cap XXXIV Orberg has Cornelius explaining gladiatorial combat: 'Cornelius: "Alter alterum in rete implicare conatur, nam qui reti implicitus est non potest se defendere et sine mora interficitur, nisi tam fortiter pugnavit ut spectatores eum vivere velint.

rete, retis (n) is declined as follows:

rete, tete, rete, retis, reti, rete; retia, retia, retia, retium, retibus, retibus (n)

What is 'reti' in '...qui reti implicatus est'? I'd have used ablative 'rete'. Is it dative or locative (also 'reti'). Dowling gives 'reti' as alternative ablative and as locative.
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Re: ...qui reti implicatus est

Postby Qimmik » Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:19 pm

It's dative. It's the object or complement of implicitus. Compound verbs usually take a dative complement, which you can think of as an indirect object or the complement of the pre-verb -- in this case in-.

Allen & Greenough 370 describes this as an indirect object:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0001%3Asmythp%3D370
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Re: ...qui reti implicatus est

Postby pmda » Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:57 pm

Thanks Quimmik
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Re: ...qui reti implicatus est

Postby Godmy » Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:12 pm

Bear in mind please, that "e" is not an ablative, when the nominative is a neuter and ends on "al, ar, re, e," (animal, exemplar/exemplare/cochlear/altar/altare, mare, rete... and similar) where there would be a danger that accusative, nominative and ablative would all coincide.

In these cases the ablative is always 'ī' (and coincides only with dative). Therefore there is a difference between "in rēte [mittere aliquem]" and "in rēti [esse]"; "in mare [dēsilīre]" and "in marī [esse]"; "in interrēte [aliquid mittere]" and "in interrēti [invenīre aliquid]"; "altāre [accēdere]" and "in altāri [iacēre]"... it will be crucial for you later.
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Re: ...qui reti implicatus est

Postby Victor » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:10 pm

I'm not sure, Godmy, whether you're saying rete is not found as an ablative. If you are, the fact is it very frequently is an ablative; more so than reti, in my experience.
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Re: ...qui reti implicatus est

Postby Godmy » Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:03 pm

Sorry, I forgot to mention I'm talking about the classical Latin (and its grammar). I would like to be shown decisively in the classical Latin "e" ablative with the neuter nouns of third declension ending on ar,al,e in the nominative.

(If you ignore that, then sure... write whatever you like)
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Re: ...qui reti implicatus est

Postby Qimmik » Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:58 pm

Godmy, although the rule you invoke is generally valid, the facts don't support your specific claim about the ablative of rete in classical Latin.

Suetonius Nero, chapter 30: piscatus est rete aurato et purpura coccoque funibus nexis. (One ms. reads retibus aureis.)

Pliny Senior, Hist. Nat. book 11, chapter 28: quanta arte celat pedicas a scutulato rete grassantes

You can't always know for sure what classical prose authors actually wrote (as opposed to what is transmitted in the mss.), but here's an example that comes with a metrical guarantee (Ovid, Fasti 5.371):

cur tibi pro Libycis clauduntur rete leaenis

The Oxford Latin Dictionary says the ablative singular of rete is usually -e.

So does Lewis and Short:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0059%3Aentry%3Drete
Last edited by Qimmik on Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: ...qui reti implicatus est

Postby pmda » Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:43 pm

Godmy wrote:Bear in mind please, that "e" is not an ablative, when the nominative is a neuter and ends on "al, ar, re, e," (animal, exemplar/exemplare/cochlear/altar/altare, mare, rete... and similar) where there would be a danger that accusative, nominative and ablative would all coincide.

In these cases the ablative is always 'ī' (and coincides only with dative). Therefore there is a difference between "in rēte [mittere aliquem]" and "in rēti [esse]"; "in mare [dēsilīre]" and "in marī [esse]"; "in interrēte [aliquid mittere]" and "in interrēti [invenīre aliquid]"; "altāre [accēdere]" and "in altāri [iacēre]"... it will be crucial for you later.


Godmy I have no clue what you mean by 'the 'e' is not an ablative, when the nominative is a neuter and ends..in...'?

I don't understand this. When the nominative of what is a neuter..and ends ...in...?!
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Re: ...qui reti implicatus est

Postby Qimmik » Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:50 pm

Here's what Allen & Greenough has to say about this (emphasis added):

76. The regular form of the Ablative singular of i-stems would be -ī: as, sitis , sitī; but in most nouns this is changed to -e.

a. The ablative in -ī is found exclusively—

* * *
In neuters in -e, -al, -ar: except baccar, iubar, rēte, and sometimes mare.

* * *


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=AG+76&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0001
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Re: ...qui reti implicatus est

Postby Godmy » Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:26 pm

Thank you, Quimmik, for the examples... didn't know about them (or what is said about "rete" specifically in OLD). I was invoking the general rule and I was rather interested whether pmda knew about it or not.
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