Carmen Catulli 62 and 63

[vir litterarum]

Hespere, quis caelo lucet iucundior ignis?
qui desponsa tua firmes conubia flamma,
62.26-27

Is this a relative clause of characteristic or a relative clause of purpose?


Super alta vectus Attis celeri rate maria
Phrygium ut nemus citato cupide pede tetigit
adiitque opaca silvis redimita loca deae,
stimulatus ibi furenti rabie, vagus animis
devolvit ili[u/] acuto sibi pondera silice.

Why is this in the dative case?

"agite ite ad alta, Gallae, Cybeles nemora simul,
simul ite, dindymenae dominae vaga pecora,
aliena quae petentes velut exules loca
sectam meam exsecutae duce me mihi comites
rapidum salum tulistis truculentaque pelagi,

63.12-16

Can anyone give me a literal translation of this. I think I have it for the most part, but I cannot figure out the usage of mihi.

[cantator]

Super alta vectus Attis celeri rate maria
Phrygium ut nemus citato cupide pede tetigit
adiitque opaca silvis redimita loca deae,
stimulatus ibi furenti rabie, vagus animis
devolvit ili acuto sibi pondera silice.

Why is this in the dative case?

According to Merrill it's not dative:

"5. ili: genitive from the stem ilio-, a rare but legitimate variant for the more frequent ili-..."

"agite ite ad alta, Gallae, Cybeles nemora simul,
simul ite, dindymenae dominae vaga pecora,
aliena quae petentes velut exules loca
sectam meam exsecutae duce me mihi comites
rapidum salum tulistis truculentaque pelagi,

Can anyone give me a literal translation of this. I think I have it for the most part, but I cannot figure out the usage of mihi.

"Go, Gallae, go at once to the deep groves of Cybele,
go now, wandering herd of the goddess of Dindyma,
you, like exiles seeking a foreign land, with me leading,
followers of my sect, my companions,
you have born the rapids and the fierce seas..."

See Allen & Greenough, 366.b, regarding the dative behaving like a genitive. "Mihi comites" translates literally then to "friends to me". I think this use is also known as the ethic dative or dative of interest. Also see Merrill's notes regarding this vocabulary, he states that there's a hierarchical relationship between dux and comes.

Btw, have you tried reading this poem aloud ? It's one of the most amazing poems I've ever read, the meter is perfectly matched to the story. Very exciting stuff.

Hmm... I wonder, did Origen ever read it ?

[vir litterarum]

I agree with your comments about the galliambic meter: The succession of short syllables concluding each line creates a rhythm not like any other I have witnessed in Latin poetry.

I was thinking that perhaps that phrase "duce me" was an example of an ablative absolute where the lost participle of esse is understood; hence, "with me being your leader." It seems like you translated "duce" as participle.

When you translated mihi, though, didn't you translate it as a dative of possession which can only be used with being verbs? If it were a dative of interest, wouldn't you have to translate it, "with me being your leader, you, companions, have endured the rapids and fierce things of the sea for me." It seems that this translation would indicate the so-called interest felt by Attis in the sentence.

[cantator]

I agree with your comments about the galliambic meter: The succession of short syllables concluding each line creates a rhythm not like any other I have witnessed in Latin poetry.

Btw, Merrill's edition has an excellent presentation of the meter.

I was thinking that perhaps that phrase "duce me" was an example of an ablative absolute where the lost participle of esse is understood; hence, "with me being your leader." It seems like you translated "duce" as participle.

"With me as leader" and "with me leading" seemed to be functionally equivalent, as far as translation goes.

When you translated mihi, though, didn't you translate it as a dative of possession which can only be used with being verbs? If it were a dative of interest, wouldn't you have to translate it, "with me being your leader, you, companions, have endured the rapids and fierce things of the sea for me." It seems that this translation would indicate the so-called interest felt by Attis in the sentence.

A&G point out that the copulative need not be present.

Chiarini translates it so:

"Su, andate, oh Galle, alle fonde selve sacre a Cibele,
andate, mandrie erranti della signora del Dindimo,
voi che, cercando come esuli luoghi remoti,
la mia fede seguiste, compagne e ancelle ubbidiente, <----
acque vorticose sfidando e mari in tempesta..."

Sorry, I don't have an English translation handy, there's probably one on the Web somewhere.

[vir litterarum]

If you translate an ethical dative just like a dative of possession, how can you discern between the two? I have always felt A&G's explanation that an ethical dative expresses " a certain interest felt by the person indicated." is far too vague.

[cantator]

If you translate an ethical dative just like a dative of possession, how can you discern between the two? I have always felt A&G's explanation that an ethical dative expresses " a certain interest felt by the person indicated." is far too vague.

I agree, I don't think the phrase is a use of the ethic dative.

I just finished reading Jozsef Herman's "Vulgar Latin", he has interesting comments regarding the confusions inherent to the oblique cases.

[Interaxus]

[cantator]

Cantator: Kudos for your promotion of Catulli carmina 62-64. I’ve still got to get through 64 (something for a Book of Longer Poems?) but 62 and 63 have already tea-stained my brain's right half.

LOL. Well, everyone knows the shorter poems, and they are rightfully his masterworks. The longer poems show off the Catullus of the Neoterici, with their ornament and parades of learning. Still, his style doesn't dissipate, he's still tight and direct, even in 64. Basil Bunting didn't care for that Catullus, but I think he dismissed 64 too quickly. Catullus is no Ovid, but the poem does show off more than perfunctory skill.

63 has no equivalent anywhere, at least in what remains in the classical corpus.

Olim a young Italian lady sent me a volume called “Catullo – Le poesie – con testo a fronte – Traduzione e note di Mario Ramous’. Here’s Mario’s version, just by way of comparison:

<<Venite, Galle, venite tra i boschi di Cibele,
venite tutte, gregge errante della dea di Díndimo:
cercando esuli terre lontane, al mio comando
per seguirmi vi siete affidate, voi mie compagne,
che avete sfidato la furia rabbiosa del mare …>>

"You who have vowed to follow me at my command, you my company..." might be a close translation. Comparing it and Chiarini's translation to the original, it seems the Italians have accepted 'mihi comites' as 'mie compagne".

I'm having a problem with ‘sectam’.
[snip]

I ask myself, can it have something to do with Attis’ sharp-flinted self-gelding?

From a handy paperback dictionary:

secta, -ae f method, principles, manner; mode, way; doctrine(s); beaten path; footsteps; sect, group, disciples; faction, party, band; class, school

A sect or faction is a group set apart from the rest, so the sense of cutting away resonates in sectam. Did Catullus intend this effect ? I think so, he is very artificial and artful in these poems.

[Interaxus]

Cantator wrote:

From a handy paperback dictionary:

secta, -ae f method, principles, manner; mode, way; doctrine(s); beaten path; footsteps; sect, group, disciples; faction, party, band; class, school

A sect or faction is a group set apart from the rest, so the sense of cutting away resonates in sectam. Did Catullus intend this effect ? I think so, he is very artificial and artful in these poems.

That just goes to show one should never rely on a single supplier. I guess I’d been dazzled by Whitaker’s ability to deliver every time – up to now. Initially I had expected less.

Yes, I found the noun ‘secta’ in my own paperback dictionaries. Hardbacked Cassell’s added: ‘(often associated with, and perhaps derived from, sequor)’. Though such an etymology would scarcely undermine your case for Catulli artfulfulness. Thanks for unfogging at least part of my mental landscape.

As for carminum 64, I’m tempted to start with an excerpt (lines 132-201) found in Fourth Year Latin by Jenney/Scudder because that way I get some extra notes. The passage seems to be a kind of Ariadne auf Naxos, and the textbook’s authors advise one to compare it to Dido’s speeches to Aeneas in the Aeneid and Ovid’s ‘Dido to Aeneas’ in Heroides VII. So one thing leads to another …

Cheers,
Int

[vir litterarum]

[Interaxus]

Vir litterarum wrote:

Hespere, quis caelo lucet iucundior ignis?
qui desponsa tua firmes conubia flamma,
62.26-27

Is this a relative clause of characteristic or a relative clause of purpose?

And

Do you have an answer about the relative clause about which I originally asked?

First, may I just share this set of Catullus vocab & notes I came across:

http://www3.baylor.edu/~John_Thorburn/c ... tes05.html

Here, for instance, I found:

conubia
conubium, conubii, n marriage; pl. a wedding
desponsa conubia = a pledged wedding

As for your question about the relative clause, I see that Goold translates your line as:

Hesperus, what kinder star than you shines in the sky?
For with your flame you confirm the covenant of marriage
(= who with your flame confirm the ‘pledged wedding’)

Gildersleeve says: “Qui with the Subjv. gives a ground, = cum is (‘causal cum’ = since/ seeing that); qui with the Indic.., a fact.

Since firmes is subjunctive, I guess Gildersleeve has answered your question.

Cheers,
Int

[Interaxus]

Vir litterarum:

This shorter version of the link I mentioned is better:

http://www3.baylor.edu/~John_Thorburn/catullus/

It's the entry point to all the poems (click on a word for translation, etc). Unfortunately, it does not address your mihi comites problem.

Cheers,
Int

[vir litterarum]

thanks for the link. I also found an excellent literal translation online for Catullus at the site www.theaterofpompey.com. It provides essentially a word-for-word rendition juxtaposed to the latin text.

[cantator]

I also found an excellent literal translation online for Catullus at the site www.theaterofpompey.com. It provides essentially a word-for-word rendition juxtaposed to the latin text.

Nice link. He translates 'mihi comites' exactly as the rest of us do.

Perhaps an understood "estis" should be supplied by the reader ? It wouldn't be the first time a Latin poet left out an understood copulative.

Also, what precisely did A&G mean by "esse and similar words" ? What do they mean by similar ? Similar in what way ? By being irregular or ... ?

After reading Herman's book I'm more than ever convinced that grammarians of Latin have done as much to confuse issues as to clarify them.

[vir litterarum]

I fully agree. It seems that when grammarians do not fully understand a usage, they endeavor to obviate the problem by using ambiguous wording. I thought that A&G were speaking of copulatives when it said "similar words," but, as you stated, the writing is too vague to be sure.