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Answers from Cap XL LLSPSI

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Answers from Cap XL LLSPSI

Postby pmda » Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:17 am

Here are answers to questions from Exercitia 6. in LLPSI. I haven't included the actual questions, just the answers..I'm just interested in any views on the latin sentences:

1. Iuppiter Mercurium illuc misit Aeneam monere ut Karthago descedenda esset.

2. Iuppiter Mercurio mandavit ut audivisset cum 'Aeneam in Africam morari'.

3. Mercurius Aeneam templum aedificantem.

4. Aeneas se interrogabat quo modo Karthagine discederet sub oculis Didonis.

5. Aeneas socios suos iussit ut classem navigandum clam pararent.

6. Troiani hiberno tempore navigare parabant.

7. Fama ei narravit ut Aeneas discedere pararet.

8. Dido Aeneam plorat ut sui misereretur et eam non relinqueret.

9. Dido timebat Gaetulos aliasque gentes Africae.

10. Dido et Aeneas coniuges non erant.

11. Aeneas ora Italia petivit ut novam patriam pro genere eius futuro institueret.

12. Dido gratiam sibi referendam putabat quod Troianos servavit.

13. Didonem vitae suae taeduit mortem oravit.

14. Aeneas cunctans curam suam Didoni dissimulabat.

15. Ancillae Didonem ad thalamum suum detulit.
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Re: Answers from Cap XL LLSPSI

Postby Qimmik » Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:31 pm

Paul, there are many errors in these sentences--unfortunately I just don't have the time to do a thorough job.

1. monere -- a purpose clause is needed here, not an infinitive. ut moneret or qui moneret. Use of Infinitive of purpose is very limited in Latin, and it's a bad habit to get into.

Allen & Greenough sec. 460: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0001%3Asmythp%3D460

decedo or discedo are intransitive (at least in prose; but descedo isn't a Latin word). You can use the infinitive with monere: Karthagine discedere or you could write ut Karthagine discederet, in which case a relative clause of purpose would seem better to avoid repetition of ut.

2. I don't understand what this is trying to say.

3. Nor this. No verb.

4. This is ok.

5. Should be ad navigandum (gerund). Ships and fleets can be the subject of navigare, but generally not direct objects. The gerundive is passive. Used transitively, the object of navigare is the body of water, not the vessel. See Lewis and Short: http://perseus.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.12:245.lewisandshort .

6. ok

7. indirect speech: use accusative + infinitive: Aeneam discedere parare.

8. Ploro + object clause in the sense "to beg" is poetic. http://perseus.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.14:3423.lewisandshort Better use impetro

Better don't mix up sequence of tenses. Either use present indicative + present subjunctive or imperfect/perfect indicative + imperfect subjunctive. eam, like sui, referring to Dido, should be se.

9 and 10 are ok.

11. ora this is feminine--either oram or oras. litora is also possible.

Italia should be genitive.

Better imperfect petebat if the situation is before Aeneas got to Italy. Petivit implies arrival.

eius referring to subject should be suo.

Better conderet.

12 is ok.

13. taeduit is ok in the sense that she "began" to be tired of life, but perhaps taedebat would be better to denote a condition. But acc. Didonem can't be the subject of orabat. If you join the verbs with et or mortemque it would be ok because there's no confusion as to the subject of oravit.

14. ok

15. Ancillae . . . detulit -- singular subject with plural verb. Either Ancilla . . . detulit or Ancillae . . . detulerunt.
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Re: Answers from Cap XL LLSPSI

Postby Shenoute » Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:58 pm

Here are some ideas/suggestions. Of course I don't pretend to be right, so hopefully someone more knowledgeable will answer.

1. Iuppiter Mercurium illuc misit Aeneam monere ut Karthago descedenda esset.
Iuppiter Mercurium misit ut Aeneam moneret Karthagine discedendum esse, but this seems a bit heavy (if not wrong)...

2. Iuppiter Mercurio mandavit ut audivisset cum 'Aeneam in Africam morari'.
The Pluperfect subj. seems weird, a bit like "Jupiter ordered that Mercurius had heard" ; I don't understand the last part of the sentence.

3. Mercurius Aeneam templum aedificantem.
Isn't the verb missing ?

5. Aeneas socios suos iussit ut classem navigandum clam pararent.
Classis is feminine ; I would write ut classem ad navigandum clam pararent.

6. Troiani hiberno tempore navigare parabant.
Troiani hiberno tempore se ad navigandum parabant.

7. Fama ei narravit ut Aeneas discedere pararet.
I would use narro + inf. prop : Fama ei narravit Aeneam se ad discedendum parare.

8. Dido Aeneam plorat ut sui misereretur et eam non relinqueret.
Plorat being a present tense, I'd use a subj. present. I also have my doubts about ploro ut, should it be oro ut ? And shouldn't ne be used instead of non ?

11. Aeneas ora Italia petivit ut novam patriam pro genere eius futuro institueret.
Italiae ?

13. Didonem vitae suae taeduit mortem oravit.
eius ?

15. Ancillae Didonem ad thalamum suum detulit.
Ancilla...detulit or ancillae...detulerunt.

Edit. I see Qimmik has answered faster than I have :-)
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Re: Answers from Cap XL LLSPSI

Postby Qimmik » Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:31 pm

13 -- I think suae is ok. A&G sec. 301b: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0001%3Asmythp%3D301

Shenoute, paro can be used with infinitive. See I(A)(b): http://perseus.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.14:630.lewisandshort

8. Yes, ne, perhaps neque here.
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Re: Answers from Cap XL LLSPSI

Postby pmda » Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:03 pm

Many thanks guys....I will study your comments. To be honest I was testing my own off-the-bat ability to write a Latin sentence (somewhat lacking it seems!). Many thanks.

I'll reply here later with some responses...

Paul
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Re: Answers from Cap XL LLSPSI

Postby Shenoute » Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:18 am

Thanks Qimmik !

It seems I always got this ejus/suus thing wrong. The grammar I use isn't very comprehensive (probably not to ovewhelm beginners) but A&G seems great.

This thread showed me how shaky my command of Latin can be. I should go through a composition textbook but everytime I tried I have been bored to death by the exercises (it seems we should only be intersted about consuls, armies and camps).
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Re: Answers from Cap XL LLSPSI

Postby pmda » Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:00 pm

1. Quare Iuppiter Mercurium Karthaginem misit?

I was trying to avoid confusing indirect speech referring to two different people... He sent Mercury in order to tell Aeneas that he (Aeneas) needed to leave Karthage. I should have written discedenda - ...but you say it's intransitive so I shouldn't have used it.

I'm reasonably clear about purpose clauses using 'ut'.

How about:

Iuppiter Mercurium illuc misit ut Aeneam moneret ut [?] Karthago deserenda erat. [that karthage needed to be abandoned] … ?

How do I say : he was sent to warn him that Karthage should be abandoned ?


2. Quid Iuppiter Mercurio mandavit?

I'm not sure what happened here. It means what did Jupiter order Mercury to do, right?

Iuppiter Mercurio mandavit ut Aeneam moneret ...


3. Qualem Mercurius Aeneam invenit?

Sorry: answer should have read: Mercurius Aeneam templum aedificantem invenit.


5. Quid sociis suis mandavit?

Aeneas socios suos iussit ut classem [ad] navigandum clam pararent.

Shenoute: 'Aeneas socios suos iussit ut classem navigandum clam pararent.
Classis is feminine ; I would write ut classem ad navigandum clam pararent'.

Thanks guys...Shenoute the gender of Classis is not relevant if you'r using a gerund, which are alll neuter anyway, right..?


6. Quo anni tempore Troiani navigare parabant?
Troiani hiberno tempore navigare parabant.

Shenoute: Troiani hiberno tempore navigare parabant.
Troiani hiberno tempore se ad navigandum parabant.

..but surely to prepare is to prepare..it's not necessary to say they prepared themselves.... though I guess it's grammatical.


7. Quomodo Dido consilia Aeneae cognovit?

Fama ei narravit ut Aeneas discedere pararet.

Quimmik: indirect speech: use accusative + infinitive: Aeneam discedere parare.

Shenoute: Fama ei narravit ut Aeneas discedere pararet.
I would use narro + inf. prop : Fama ei narravit Aeneam se ad discedendum parare.

Got that. Shenoute that's great...


8. Quid Dido hospitem suum oravit?

OK so how about: Dido Aeneam oravit ut sui misereretur et se non relinqueret.


11. Cur Aeneas in Italiam proficisci cupiebat?

Got that. So it should read: Aeneas ora[m] Italia[e] pet[ebat] ut novam patriam pro genere [suo] futuro institueret.
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Re: Answers from Cap XL LLSPSI

Postby Shenoute » Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:28 am

Hi pmda,

Thank you for posting this kind of post, this is really a great way for me to work on developing a more solid command of Latin.
pmda wrote:5. Quid sociis suis mandavit?

Aeneas socios suos iussit ut classem [ad] navigandum clam pararent.

Shenoute: 'Aeneas socios suos iussit ut classem navigandum clam pararent.
Classis is feminine ; I would write ut classem ad navigandum clam pararent'.

Thanks guys...Shenoute the gender of Classis is not relevant if you'r using a gerund, which are alll neuter anyway, right..?

Sorry if I wasn't clear, my remark was twofolded :
- if you write navigandum alone (instead of ad navigandum), then it is a verbal adjective (Gerundive) and has to agree in gender with classis (> "the fleet that has to be sailed")
- the Gerund is a verbal noun, so to express goal it has to be preceded by ad (sometimes in), "they prepare the fleet in order to sail".

pmda wrote:6. Quo anni tempore Troiani navigare parabant?
Troiani hiberno tempore navigare parabant.

Shenoute: Troiani hiberno tempore navigare parabant.
Troiani hiberno tempore se ad navigandum parabant.

..but surely to prepare is to prepare..it's not necessary to say they prepared themselves.... though I guess it's grammatical.
Yes, as Qimmik wrote parare+inf. is a perfectly valid construction, it's just that I wasn't aware of that, being more accustomed to "se parare ad -ndum" (surely because the French "se préparer à" is a perfect calque).

pmda wrote:8. Quid Dido hospitem suum oravit?

OK so how about: Dido Aeneam oravit ut sui misereretur et se non relinqueret.

Being a final/purpose clause, the negation should be ne (ut non is used for the consecutive clauses). So using what Qimmik suggested : "Dido Aeneam oravit ut sui misereretur neque se relinqueret".

Edit. This book shows that "and...not" in a final clause is to be rendered by neve/neu. So "Dido Aeneam oravit ut sui misereretur neve se relinqueret".
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Re: Answers from Cap XL LLSPSI

Postby Qimmik » Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:44 pm

"and...not" in a final clause is to be rendered by neve/neu. So "Dido Aeneam oravit ut sui misereretur neve se relinqueret".


That's right. I forgot that.
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Re: Answers from Cap XL LLSPSI

Postby pmda » Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:48 pm

Many thanks. Quimmik your answer to 1. is fine...I just didn't read it properly. Thanks to you both.
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Re: Answers from Cap XL LLSPSI

Postby Qimmik » Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:02 pm

Check Lewis and Short, but I think that desero would imply that all the inhabitants would abandon the city, not just that a particular group would leave.

Also narro would seem to mean "tell a story", like "narrate", not "communicate a fact." Dixit would probably be better.

In translating from English to Latin, you should generally look up Latin words in a good Latin-English dictionary (Lewis and Short, Oxford Latin Dictionary) to make sure you're using the word in the right sense. Fortunately, you can do this easily because searchable Lewis and Short is on-line.
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