I'm seeing what I think are two completely contradictory accounts of the use of the gerund / gerundive in Latin.
The question was inspired by this question I asked earlier about 'Dido puero tuendo'. The consensus appears to be that this is a gerundive.
Now I then went to find out more about the gerund and gerundive and their use in the ablative case.
Here's what I found:
First see this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsI3EC8AxQE
from Dr. Keith Massey
where he says:
1. When a gerund has an object, that object can be put in the accusative. He then provides this example:
Discimus docendo Latinam.
We learn by teaching Latin.
but then he immediately says
2. Most of the time 1. above doesn't happen. Instead:
Gerunds don't take direct
objects (but he says a gerundive can) but when a gerund has an (I assume he means indirect) object then that object is usually in the same case as the gerund. In fact the gerund takes on the same case as the object rather than the other way around. I don't understand this latter point so much but I will let it pass for now.
So we get Discimus docenda Latina. We learn by teaching Latin.
Discimus docendis Linguis.
We learn by teaching languages.
OK but then I saw this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiXK9eKwfvY
by Shanon Aquirre who says that the phrase:
Marcus learns by means of reading books.
- a pretty identical construction - CANNOT be rendered by a gerund because a gerund 'cannot take an object' - this directly contradicts Massey
who seems to say it can (though indirectly). In fact she says the phrase 'Marcus learns by means of reading books' has a 'direct object within it'. Really? I don't think it does. Surely the main verb is 'learns' and that doesn't have any direct object....?
She offers: Marcus libris legendis discit
as the gerundive solution to Marcus learns by reading books - producing pretty much the identical construction which Massey
says is gerund and which she says is gerundive.
It seems to me that Phoenissa puero tuendo incenditur could, if I believe Massey
, be an active gerund:
Dido by looking at the boy was inflamed.
Or (If I'm to believe Shanon Aquirre and others) a (passive of course) gerundive:
Dido, the boy having been gazed upon, was inflamed.