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Postby Lucus Eques » Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:39 am

Actually, à propos of cdm's very generous compliment, I would like to record something perhaps of Cicero's, or of another orator. However, I'm totally unfamiliar with Cicero's work. What can someone recommend from Tully's corpus that I might record?
L. Amadeus Ranierius

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more readings

Postby cantator » Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:38 am

Salvete !

I've added two more readings to this site :

http://linux-sound.org/latin-audio-examples

The new pieces are prose selections from Wheelock's reader: Cicero on Wisdom (from De Officiis) and a chunk from Ecclesiastes in the Vulgate Bible. I've used a bastardized "Church-Latin" for the pronunciation of the Biblical passage, I hope it's not overdone.

Btw, the examples are in rough chronological order, you'll have to scroll down to find the Vulgate text.

I hope you enjoy them, comments are welcome, and there's more on the way.
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Postby Iulianus » Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:04 pm

I've always wanted to hear either one of two speeches by Cicero spoken aloud by someone: either the first Catiline speech, which shows Cicero at his best: sharp, stinging, but concise; or the second Philippic, which Cicero never even delivered in front of an audience, perhaps because it was so extremely invective. I particularly like the following part:

'is [M. Antonius] vomens frustis esculentis vinum redolentibus gremium suum et totum tribunal inplevit!'

- Cic. Phil. 2.25
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Re: more readings

Postby Amadeus » Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:59 pm

Ave, Cantator!

A few helpful criticisms, if I may.

cantator wrote:I've used a bastardized "Church-Latin" for the pronunciation of the Biblical passage, I hope it's not overdone.


Could you explain this a bit more? What do you mean by bastardized? Do you think Church-Latin in itself is a bastardization of latin? In that case I would have a bone to pick with you, because there are many of us who love ecclesiastical latin and try to preserve it.

Also, I noticed irregularities (bastardizations?) in your recording: "ae" is pronounced "eh" (long), the g is soft before e & i; c is "ch" before ae, oe, e & i (so ecce would be ec-che), and, well, perhaps this link will explain more:

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/eccl ... _latin.htm

Keep up the good work. When I make recordings of my own, you can tear me to pieces if you like.

Vale, amice!
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

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Re: more readings

Postby cantator » Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:43 pm

Amadeus wrote:
cantator wrote:I've used a bastardized "Church-Latin" for the pronunciation of the Biblical passage, I hope it's not overdone.


Could you explain this a bit more? What do you mean by bastardized? Do you think Church-Latin in itself is a bastardization of latin? In that case I would have a bone to pick with you, because there are many of us who love ecclesiastical latin and try to preserve it.


No,no, I was referring only to my own pronunciation. I haven't really tried reading much Medieval Latin prose aloud, and I've not looked closely at the phonology of ecclesiastical Latin. I take it that there is a modern accepted norm for pronunciation ?

Also, I noticed irregularities (bastardizations?) in your recording: "ae" is pronounced "eh" (long), the g is soft before e & i; c is "ch" before ae, oe, e & i (so ecce would be ec-che), and, well, perhaps this link will explain more:

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/eccl ... _latin.htm


Well, there's the answer to my question. Thanks for the link, I'll try to match my next recording with its advice.

Keep up the good work. When I make recordings of my own, you can tear me to pieces if you like.


No fear, I'm pleased as butter to get some input. I figure we're all learning as we go. :)
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Re: more readings

Postby Amadeus » Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:32 pm

Oh, we're good then. :wink:

I'll be waiting for your next ecclesiastical-latin reading.

Vale!
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

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Postby Interaxus » Mon Aug 21, 2006 3:18 am

Hi,

Cantator: A technical problem. I went to www.linus-sound.org) but I couldn’t download Luci MP3 files (from ‘students.jbu.edu’) or Cicero on Wisdom (from ‘linux-sound.org’). I got the message ‘unable to open this Internet site’, or ‘Page not found’ (if I double-clicked). The other files download without a hitch. Any clue as to why there is this discrepancy?

Cantator & Luci: I’ve listened to the Wilfried Stroh Vergil recordings at http://wiredforbooks.org/aeneid/, a lady reading Ritchie’s tales with a strong American accent at http://bestlatin.net/, an Irish classics scholar and a number of others, but your versions body forth what I hear in my mind when I read the Latin myself.

Here’s a Desert Island List for either of you whenever you get the time:

PROSE

1. Fabulae Faciles by Ritchie. Not the real thing of course but a useful waystage for amorphous intermediates like myself.
2. Caesar – more of the same (Gallic War).
3. Cicero & oratory –I agree with Julianus.
4. Petronius (bit of Trimalchio’s feast?).
5. Pliny the Younger (Vesuvius and his uncle’s demise?).

POETRY

1. Catullus: Miser catulle [8], Multas per gentes [101].
2. Horace: Vides ut alta [1.9] (but I’ve already requested that one); Solvitur acris hiems [1.4]; Diffugere nives [4.7]; Eheu fugaces, Postume (2.14); Quis multa gracilis [1.5]; Ne quisieris [1.11]
3. Ovid: Pyramus et Thisbe [Bk 4,lines 55-70/80].
4. Vergil: 1st Eclogue [lines 1-18, lines 46-58], Aeneid Bk 6, lines 450-476 [Dido’s unforgiving ghost].

Purple patches? Yes, but why not?

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Postby cantator » Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:38 am

Interaxus wrote:Cantator: A technical problem. I went to www.linus-sound.org) but I couldn’t download Luci MP3 files (from ‘students.jbu.edu’) or Cicero on Wisdom (from ‘linux-sound.org’). I got the message ‘unable to open this Internet site’, or ‘Page not found’ (if I double-clicked). The other files download without a hitch. Any clue as to why there is this discrepancy?


Yes: I goofed up the URLs. Thanks for the heads-up, I've fixed the offending addresses, they should work fine now.

Here’s a Desert Island List for either of you whenever you get the time:

PROSE

4. Petronius (bit of Trimalchio’s feast?).


I'll put that on my TODO list. I read the Cena Trimalchionis earlier this year, it was a great experience. The prose in that piece is nothing like Caesar. :)

POETRY

1. Catullus: Miser catulle [8], Multas per gentes [101].
2. Horace: Vides ut alta [1.9] (but I’ve already requested that one); Solvitur acris hiems [1.4]; Diffugere nives [4.7]; Eheu fugaces, Postume (2.14); Quis multa gracilis [1.5]; Ne quisieris [1.11]
3. Ovid: Pyramus et Thisbe [Bk 4,lines 55-70/80].
4. Vergil: 1st Eclogue [lines 1-18, lines 46-58], Aeneid Bk 6, lines 450-476 [Dido’s unforgiving ghost].

Purple patches? Yes, but why not?


You're in luck, my friend. I know all those poems well enough to attempt another recording effort. I also read through the first book of Odes this year (it's been a Latin year for me), and the carmina Catulli are old favorites.

I'll fire up the studio today, and hopefully I'll have some new things on-line this evening.
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Postby jjhayes84 » Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:55 pm

Lucus Eques wrote:Actually, à propos of cdm's very generous compliment, I would like to record something perhaps of Cicero's, or of another orator. However, I'm totally unfamiliar with Cicero's work. What can someone recommend from Tully's corpus that I might record?

I would like to hear something from In Catalinam I. For whatever reason I find this speech to be quite funny.
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Postby Interaxus » Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:26 pm

Cantator:

Gratias tibi ago - mille, deinde centum, deinde usque altera(s?) mille, deinde centum.

All the files are behaving perfectly now. I look forward to downloading the next one you get around to recording.

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Postby bellum paxque » Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:27 am

Well, what about this thread? Now's the perfect time, I think, for petitioning and prodding.

http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-foru ... php?t=5447
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Postby Amadeus » Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:20 pm

Well, here's my feeble attempt at latin (ecclesiastical latin, for now). It is the first verses of the Gospel according to St. John (In principio erat Verbum). This is a "plain" reading, there is no art in it. Also, I did my best to find the macrons for this text, but some I just guessed. Please feel free to make any observations.

:oops:

Here's the text:

In prīncipiō erat Verbum, et Verbum erat apud Deum, et Deus erat Verbum. Hoc erat in prīncipiō apud Deum. Omnia per ipsum facta sunt: et sine ipsō factum est nihil, quod factum est: in ipsō vīta erat, et vīta erat lux hominum: et lux in tenebrīs lūcet, et tenebrae eam nōn comprehendērunt. Fuit homō missus ā Deō, cui nōmen erat Joannēs. Hic vēnit in testimōnium, ut testimōnium perhibēret dē lūmine, ut omnēs crēderent per illum. Nōn erat ille lux, sed ut testimōnium perhibēret dē lūmine. Erat lux vēra, quae illuminat omnem hominem veniēntem in hunc mundum. In mundō erat, et mundus per ipsum factus est, et mundus eum nōn cognōvit. In propria vēnit, et suī eum nōn recepērunt. Quotquot autem recepērunt eum, dēdit eīs potestātem fīliōs Deī fierī, hīs, quī crēdunt in nōmine ejus: quī nōn ex sanguinibus, neque ex voluntāte carnis, neque ex voluntāte virī, sed ex Deō natī sunt. Et Verbum Carō factum est, et habitāvit in nōbīs: et vīdimus glōriam ejus, glōriam quasi Unigenitī ā Patre, plenum gratiae et veritātis.

And here's the audio:

Click here to listen!

Valete!
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.
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and yet more

Postby cantator » Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:48 pm

I've added three poems and restructured this site :

http://linux-sound.org/latin-audio-examples

It's a bit reorganized, and it should be easier to navigate now.

Interaxus: You'll now find Catullus 8 and 101, along with Horace 1-9 (Vides ut alta). The quantity is wrong for "Vale" in Cat 8, I got carried away. Sorry about that, but I hope you enjoy the poems anyway. :)
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Postby cantator » Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:55 pm

Amadeus wrote:Well, here's my feeble attempt at latin (ecclesiastical latin, for now). It is the first verses of the Gospel according to St. John (In principio erat Verbum). This is a "plain" reading, there is no art in it. Also, I did my best to find the macrons for this text, but some I just guessed. Please feel free to make any observations.


Well, I like it. :) It's a great passage, your reading clearly indicates that you understand the text well. I'd like to hear more, it will certainly help with my attempts at ecclesiastical pronuciation.

Bravo, nicely done.
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Postby Interaxus » Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:52 am

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Postby cantator » Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:23 am

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Postby Interaxus » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:23 am

Hi Cantator,

Beautiful reading of 1.9! I'm transported back 2000 years to the cold hillside. :D

I apologize for my less than intuitive fumbling with your smart menu system. Some of us need everything spelled out in extreme detail.

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Postby cantator » Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:02 pm

Interaxus wrote:Beautiful reading of 1.9! I'm transported back 2000 years to the cold hillside. :D


Thank you, and thank you for suggesting it. It is a favorite poem, but I really got into taking it apart & putting it back together this time. Horace achieves a certain "mosaic" effect with his syntax, I try to bring that out in my reading. The instances of agreement have great effect throughout his poetry (well, I think that's true for the Odes, at least).

Horace is like Ovid, his mastery of the language always brings up something new and striking. I'll soon add "Quis multa gracilis", one of his most sonorous poems, another demonstration of his gifts.

Btw, IIRC Horace remarked that he spent a year or so writing the first book of Odes, then another decade polishing them to their present state of perfection. Am I remembering wrongly or does he actually state that somewhere ?

I apologize for my less than intuitive fumbling with your smart menu system. Some of us need everything spelled out in extreme detail.Int


No need to apologize, I shouldn't assume that my ancient HTML skills are up to the modern expectations. I'm open to suggestions for making the page more usable, but I'm afraid I won't be able to make the time to learn one of the up-to-date Web scripting languages. :(
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Postby Amadeus » Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:13 pm

cantator wrote:Well, I like it. :) It's a great passage, your reading clearly indicates that you understand the text well. I'd like to hear more, it will certainly help with my attempts at ecclesiastical pronuciation.

Bravo, nicely done.


Hmmm... Si amavisti, Cantator, meas recitationes, plures litteras legam!

Gratias multas tibi ago! :D
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

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Postby Interaxus » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:07 pm

Hi Cantator,

Can't recall reading of any such statement by Horace himself. I do know he published the first three books first and only much later added the fourth. I've just driven down to my country cottage and left all my Horatian literature back in town but I'll check it out when I return in a few days' time. Out here in the sticks I've only got a painfully slow telephone connection otherwise I'd do the Web thing. Meanwhile I've just downloaded to my laptop your audios plus the Audacity software needed to play them so you see I plan to enjoy myself. Further comments later no doubt.

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Postby bellum paxque » Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:33 am

I've nothing of substance to add at the moment - except a nod of agreement to Interaxus' structural suggestion - but I do want to pour forth my profuse thanks for all of the recordings offered by the helpful members of the forum. I've already gotten a lot of pleasure out of listening to these poems (and selections of prose). I can't thank you enough for sharing your expertise and enthusiasm!

I hope to try my own hand, er, voice soon.

Regards,

David
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Postby cantator » Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:23 am

Interaxus wrote:Bellum paxque: I absolutely agree it’s high time Textkit got its audio act together. Here’s my suggestion for a menu structure:
[snip]


I like it, and I hope the Textkit management will consider such an arrangement. There's a fair amount of spoken Latin hanging out on the Web, but as far as I know no-one has collated a list of the sites. Google's the starting point, it shouldn't be too hard to put together a good reference list a la Interaxus's suggested organization.

Btw, I've reorganized my Latin readings site again. The collection of texts got too lengthy for a single page, so I prepared a separate TOC page that links to individual pages for the readings. Hopefully that will minimize confusion and should make the site easier to use. As always, you can find the juice here :

http://linux-sound.org/latin-audio-examples

Feedback welcome.
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Postby Interaxus » Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:21 am

Hi Cantator,

Listening to your recording of Horace 1.9 helps me not only to follow the mosaic of inflections in real time but also to grasp more clearly the poem´s internal progression. This particular poem has been criticized for its seemingly incongruous jump from the opening snow scene to a warm spring evening in the forum (as though Horace had forgotten to issue woolly underwear to his amorous personae). But Horace's poetic floorplan seems logical enough:

Winter scene: Horace and his young friend gaze on nature's rigor mortis - snow-buried mountain, snow-crushed trees, frozen river.
Poet says to friend, Come inside, keep out the cold. Pile on the logs, pour out the wine. While we're warm, we're alive!

The gods bring even the most passionate lives / events to an end - with impressive finality (more bad-weather / nature images). Friend, you're in the springtime of life. Don't waste it!

Spring scene: Horace conjures up a real-life springtime scene (which is just around the corner after winter anyway) to remind his young friend of the pleasures awaiting him - physical jerks (á la Klewlis?) and amorous adventures.

NUNC = NOW while you are young.

I'm curious. Does anyone reading or listening to this poem have a problem with the shift from winter to spring? Or with the interpretation of NUNC?

Forgive this digression from the strictly technical nature of this thread.

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Postby cantator » Sat Aug 26, 2006 12:09 pm

Interaxus wrote:[snip] ...
NUNC = NOW while you are young.

I'm curious. Does anyone reading or listening to this poem have a problem with the shift from winter to spring? Or with the interpretation of NUNC?


Not at all. I was reading Roger Hornsby's work-up of this poem in his Reading Latin Poetry, he takes pretty much the same course of interpretation as you have.

Curiously some editors make the first strophe a question. Does it seem like that to you ? Also, how did the Romans articulate a question (i.e. a rise of pitch, a particular stress, etc.) ?

Forgive this digression from the strictly technical nature of this thread.


Oh dear, I wish there were more critical attempts here. As Pound wrote, there's already too much uncritical acceptance of opinion. The fact is that not everything Catullus wrote is equally good, ditto for Beethoven, ditto for any productive artist. But it takes considerable time and effort to acquire the tools necessary to make informed critical comparisons, and who has that kind of time these days ?

Heu, ego sum vetulus doctus et murmurans solus in deserto. :(
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Postby Interaxus » Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:01 pm

Hi Cantator,

Thanks for your kind words and keen comments.

If the Vides is a question, it's purely rhetorical and thus makes little difference, don't you think? How the ancients intoned their questions must surely be guesswork. Perhaps 100 years from now some computer program will be able to simulate the sound of lost languages (in the manner of National Geographic King Tut mugshot reconstructions).

As for critically scrutinizing admired works, I'm not finished with Ode 1.9 yet!

If I unravel sentence 3, I get:

Permitte cetera divis
qui simul stravere ventos deproeliantes fervido aeqore,
agitantur nec cupressi nec veteres orni.

Leave all else to the gods
who, once they've calmed the winds battling on the foaming sea, ... (?)
... neither cypresses nor ancient ash trees are shaken.

Of course, we can insert a colon (or a dash or a 'since' or a 'for', etc) to produce a more or less logical English sentence:

Leave all else to the gods: once they've calmed the winds battling on the foaming sea, neither cypresses nor ancient ash trees are shaken.

But what happened to the 'qui' clause? How did the subjects get changed? And anyway, what about tense rules? Shouldn't 'stravere' be FUTURE perfect?

My own failure to resolve these no doubt puerile questions in no way lessens my pleasure in the poem but I'd love to have them explained. Anyone have the answers up their sleeve?

Heu, ego sum vetulus doctus et murmurans solus in deserto.

Moaning alone in the wilderness? Well, what was it Omar Fitzgerald Khayyam said concerning a Book of Verse and certain other accoutrements?

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Postby cantator » Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:36 pm

Interaxus wrote:If the Vides is a question, it's purely rhetorical and thus makes little difference, don't you think? How the ancients intoned their questions must surely be guesswork. Perhaps 100 years from now some computer program will be able to simulate the sound of lost languages (in the manner of National Geographic King Tut mugshot reconstructions).


Ooh, I want that software ! :)

If I unravel sentence 3, I get:

Permitte cetera divis
qui simul stravere ventos deproeliantes fervido aequore,
agitantur nec cupressi nec veteres orni.

Leave all else to the gods
who, once they've calmed the winds battling on the foaming sea, ... (?)
... neither cypresses nor ancient ash trees are shaken.


Stravere has considerably more force than "calmed". Force, even violent force is implied in the primary meaning. Simul here implies "at once". So a provisional translation might read:

"Leave the rest to the gods who instantly crush the winds battling with the boiling sea,
neither cypress nor ancient ash are bothered."

Of course, we can insert a colon (or a dash or a 'since' or a 'for', etc) to produce a more or less logical English sentence:


Agreed, but I'd want it after aequore.

But what happened to the 'qui' clause? How did the subjects get changed? And anyway, what about tense rules? Shouldn't 'stravere' be FUTURE perfect?


I suspect that the poets knew the language and its capabilities better than we do. :) Sometimes the grammarians bend 'way backwards to accommodate their rules to practice, though of course the Latin poets did indeed attend to grammar in ways rather different from poets today.

My own failure to resolve these no doubt puerile questions in no way lessens my pleasure in the poem but I'd love to have them explained. Anyone have the answers up their sleeve?


Best is to check what other translators have come up with. Btw, you might also want to read some Propertius, his use of the language is quite striking.

Heu, ego sum vetulus doctus et murmurans solus in deserto.

Moaning alone in the wilderness? Well, what was it Omar Fitzgerald Khayyam said concerning a Book of Verse and certain other accoutrements?


I translate it as mumbling, but it comes close enough. And as it happens, I have all of Khayyam's recommended accoutrements right here with me today. :)

Next up: the so-called Virgilian Copa, one of my favorite poems in any language.
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Postby Interaxus » Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:56 pm

Cantator:

Just a brief backtrack to your earlier query on Horace's poetry-polishing method. I just came across this on Vergil's 'cub-licking' method, taken from Donatus:

How Virgil composed

It is handed down that, while he was composing the Georgics, he usually dictated a great number of verses which he had thought out in the morning, and would, in revising them throughout the day, reduce them to a very small number, saying that he brought his poem into being in a fashion not unlike the bear's, that in fact he fashioned it by licking. As for the Aeneid, he first drafted it in prose and divided it into twelve books, deciding to construct it bit by bit, so that he could do each part as it seized his fancy, taking up nothing in order lest anything should impede his momentum. He would let certain things pass unfinished; others he propped up, as it were, with lightweight verses, joking that they were placed there as struts, to hold up the edifice until the solid columns arrived.

Here's the link: http://virgil.org/vitae/

Further comments on divers matters of interest later.
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my first contribution

Postby bellum paxque » Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:53 pm

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Postby cantator » Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:00 pm

Interaxus wrote:Cantator:
Just a brief backtrack to your earlier query on Horace's poetry-polishing method. I just came across this on Vergil's 'cub-licking' method, taken from Donatus:
[snip]


Interaxus: I know this passage, but I didn't know that it came from Donatus.

Quaero: Cur Donati Priscianisque libri grammatici non utendi sunt in exedra hodierna ? In aevo medio satis boni ad scholares docendum. Cur non hodie ?
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Re: my first contribution

Postby cantator » Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:12 pm

bellum paxque wrote:Anyone care to hear some Tacitus?


Yes, please !

caueat auditor: My pronunciation is none too perfect, and there are a lot of spots that make me wince a bit. But I can't keep repeating this forever, and this effort is definitely my best.


And it's pretty darned good. The only plaint I'll make is regarding the elision. I like it well enough in prose within a period, but perhaps you should admit hiatus at sense stops and comma-delimited periods. Hiatus is another poetic device, so if you're admitting elision you may as well admit its opposite. ;)

Also, I ought to (and do) apologize for the sound quality. My roommate was asleep with the good sound equipment while I was laboring away. I do hope it's comprehensible.


Quite. It starts out a bit quietly, just as though you were trying not to wake someone, but then you get into it and it picks up some vim. The selection is good too, makes me want to read more Tacitus.

Btw, I listened to the reading on a pretty good playback system.

Any criticism or feedback you may have is welcome and, indeed, requested!


Please, sir, may I have another ? :)
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Re: my first contribution

Postby Amadeus » Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:14 pm

bellum paxque wrote:caueat auditor: My pronunciation is none too perfect, and there are a lot of spots that make me wince a bit. But I can't keep repeating this forever, and this effort is definitely my best.

Any criticism or feedback you may have is welcome and, indeed, requested!


Salve, bellumpaxque!

Nice try :D But if you permit me (and promise not to kill me), I have a couple of suggestions.

-Remember to trill the r's (i.e., move your tongue to the front and flap it ).
-I'm still not sold on the elisions. My view is that they are best kept in verse, where you have to think of the metre, and the reading is more affected.

I await your next recording, amice!

P.S.: Don't you just wanna kill yourself when you've recorded the same thing about 10 times, and you're still not satisfied with it? I do.
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

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Re: my first contribution

Postby nostos » Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:48 pm

Amadeus wrote:P.S.: Don't you just wanna kill yourself when you've recorded the same thing about 10 times, and you're still not satisfied with it? I do.


I can’t stand having to record the same line 36(+) times because I can’t seem to get the damnable pronunciation & intonation right, as was the case with me last night (my recordings for the time being are for my ears only :P)

But I have to give my deepest complements to all. I look forward to seeing an audio section on Textkit. Interaxus’ suggestion is excellent. If we can’t get audio as an official part of Textkit’s offerings, perhaps we can follow Interaxus’ list in a new, sticky thread on this board.
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Postby Amadeus » Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:41 pm

Well, here's another audio recording. There are some words in ablative with the long vowels pronounced short, but, darn it, I'm tired of listening to myself :evil: Also, the sound quality is not the best. So I apologize.

This is the best Baba Wawa ('classical') pronunciation I could do. Any criticisms are welcomed (especially from those whom I've criticized). :wink:

This is the story of baby Hercules, taken from "Ritchie's Fabulae Faciles".

Click here to listen!
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

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Postby bellum paxque » Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:17 am

-Remember to trill the r's (i.e., move your tongue to the front and flap it ).
-I'm still not sold on the elisions. My view is that they are best kept in verse, where you have to think of the metre, and the reading is more affected.


Amadeus, these are great suggestions - I found that I can trill the r's a lot better when I'm not trying to record my voice! ;) I'll slow down a bit next time. I'm still not sure about the elisions, either. I'm going to spend some more time thinking about them. We'll see how it sounds next time.

This is the story of baby Hercules, taken from "Ritchie's Fabulae Faciles".


Ah yes! Thanks for recording this. It's easy enough to understand on my first listen, especially since I've read this selection before (several times). I'll have to listen to it again, when I'm not at work.

And it's pretty darned good. The only plaint I'll make is regarding the elision. I like it well enough in prose within a period, but perhaps you should admit hiatus at sense stops and comma-delimited periods. Hiatus is another poetic device, so if you're admitting elision you may as well admit its opposite.


This is a good point. As I said above, next selection, I'll try to choose between elisions that don't damage the sense, and those that do. In this particular reading, I really liked, for example, the elision at in uictoria habuere (the end). I thought that, without the elision, it would have lacked its terminal punch.

...I'll try to find another good passage in Tacitus as soon as I find the time. (Maybe tonight.)

Thanks for all the helpful responses!

-David
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Postby Interaxus » Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:29 am

Hi,

Bellum paxque: Despite your room-mate’s silent snoring, great read! Thanks.

Cantator: Once again a new planet ‘swims into my ken’. So bye-bye Pluto and welcome Capo. Thanks for introducing me to a poem I didn’t even know existed.

I agree, the verb sterno, sternere, stravi, stratum packs a punch. With its many shades of meaning (scatter, strew, spread; throw down, lay low, pave, etc), its protean mutations (what grammatical term am I seeking?), and its multiple derivations (consternation, stratify, etc), it certainly has charisma.

Leave the rest to the gods who instantly crush the winds battling with the boiling sea,
neither cypress nor ancient ash are bothered.

I’m not sure your translation resolves my sentence-structure problem (after all, stravere IS perfect, isn’t it?) but I quite agree we should lend greater credence to the rule-breaching masters than the brush-and-shovel grammarians.

Speaking of which …

Quaero: Cur Donati Priscianisque libri grammatici non utendi sunt in exedra hodierna ? In aevo medio satis boni ad scholares docendum. Cur non hodie?

Yes, ye ancient scholars certainly deserve respect in their own right. At least some attempts have been made to expose their scholarly acuity to us modern folks. For example, so far I’ve managed to acquire the following:

Vergil’s Aeneid – A Structural Approach by Waldo E. Sweet, 1959, containing Book 1 and 2 of Vergil’s original on left-had pages with an interpretatio & notes in Latin based on Servius and Donatus on right-hand pages.

Servius’ Commentary on Book Four of Virgil’s (sic) Aeneid, by McDonough, Prior & Stansbury, 2004, which includes both original text and commentary in Latin and English.

A facsimile of Ars Minor of Donatus by Chase, 1926. In fact, to return to the original topic of this thread, may I add to my Recordings Wish List the section ‘De Praepositione’ from this work (approx 350 CE)? A priceless example of early schoolroom discourse in Latin. To any of the competent readers out there willing to give it a try, I can send a scanned copy of the text if you don’t already have it.

Cheers,
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Postby bellum paxque » Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:03 am

In fact, to return to the original topic of this thread, may I add to my Recordings Wish List the section "De Praepositione" from this work...To any of the competent readers out there willing to give it a try, I can send a scanned copy of the text if you don't already have it.


If I'm included among the competent readers you mention, I'd be delighted to give it a shot. I'll send my email in a pm.
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Postby cantator » Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:52 am

Interaxus wrote:
Quaero: Cur Donati Priscianisque libri grammatici non utendi sunt in exedra hodierna ? In aevo medio satis boni ad scholares docendum. Cur non hodie?

Yes, ye ancient scholars certainly deserve respect in their own right. At least some attempts have been made to expose their scholarly acuity to us modern folks. For example, so far I’ve managed to acquire the following:
[snip]


Hey, thanks a lot for those references ! I'm very interested in Latin language instruction and commentary in the Middle Ages, I'll be looking for these works.

A facsimile of Ars Minor of Donatus by Chase, 1926. In fact, to return to the original topic of this thread, may I add to my Recordings Wish List the section ‘De Praepositione’ from this work (approx 350 CE)? A priceless example of early schoolroom discourse in Latin. To any of the competent readers out there willing to give it a try, I can send a scanned copy of the text if you don’t already have it.


I'd like to see that. I'll figure out how to send a PM here and let you know where to send the copy.

It would be neat to have the discourse read by two or more participants, like the Michel Thomas "classroom" approach.
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Postby cdm2003 » Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:00 am

Lucus Eques wrote: Any requaests? Soon I'll be at school and recording will be more difficult, so now is the time.


You know...I've been actually thinking about this since you posted it. I know this thread has definitely contained some excellent ideas for audio recordings. But, how about a slight departure from the sublime and serious? There's a poem in the beginning of the Apocolocyntosis about the three fates and the end of Claudius...quite tongue and cheek. Might be fun...?

Chris
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Postby Interaxus » Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:59 am

Amadeus:
I loved your rendition! (Did I detect an occasional Spanish 'd'-as- in-verdad'?)

Cantator,

I'm very interested in Latin language instruction and commentary in the Middle Ages.

If you haven't done so yet, check out Somniane's posting in the thread "Wordsworth's Daffodils in Latin". Some amazing links.

Cheers,
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Postby Amadeus » Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:31 pm

Interaxus wrote:Amadeus:
I loved your rendition! (Did I detect an occasional Spanish 'd'-as- in-verdad'?)


¡Ah, gracias amigo! Your praise gives me greater confidence still. Yes, I'm aware of the Spanish accent when reading latin, but that's because I've yet to learn Italian. As for the d's, haven't really delved into the subtle variations of consonants in classical latin phonetics, but now I will, thanks to your comment. :)

Vale, amice!
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

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