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Postby cantator » Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:01 pm

Similis sum folio de quo ludunt venti.
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Postby cdm2003 » Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:42 pm

On the topic of audio, how do you all pronounce ais and ait? When recording myself (American accent), I pronounce ais like the English ice except with a bit of a roll from long-a to long-i, both equally accented. Exaggerated, I would make it sound "ahhhh-eeeee-s." With aio and aiunt, I treat the i as consonantal.

Any suggestions?
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Postby cantator » Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:48 pm

cdm2003 wrote:On the topic of audio, how do you all pronounce ais and ait? When recording myself (American accent), I pronounce ais like the English ice except with a bit of a roll from long-a to long-i, both equally accented. Exaggerated, I would make it sound "ahhhh-eeeee-s." With aio and aiunt, I treat the i as consonantal.

Any suggestions?


I do much the same thing. Care must be taken that the combination not quite equal *two* long vowels, putting it out of proportion to any surrounding long syllables.
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Postby Amadeus » Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:05 pm

nostos wrote:and then tentatively concluded that it doesn't happen in Mexico (must be those Castillians!)


This bilabial fricative is actually valid for all Spanish-speaking people. It is not confined to Madrid.

I'm actually excited about phonetics! :oops:


Hey, you and me both, man! :D
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Postby Lucus Eques » Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:09 pm

Gentlemen, I propose we convene on Skype to discuss this matter together as soon as possible. It's so hard to describe sound; you really just need to hear it. It would make these discussions go a lot faster, and I bet we're actually agreeing more than we realize.

I'll have more commentary later.
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Postby Amadeus » Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:56 pm

Sorry, no can do. I can't run Skype on Win98. But it should be possible to describe the sounds we are discussing and looking for. We can use the IPA notation for this purpose.
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

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Postby Hu » Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:02 pm

Could we perhaps record the sounds we're discussing and put them on the internet for you to listen to? It would be better than nothing.

I'm up for convening and offering my opinions on pronunciation.
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Postby bellum paxque » Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:23 am

I'm interested in the phonetic logic that converts the U vocalic into a W consonantal sound. I've found that it is certainly not necessary to shift the pronunciation so far forward as English W.


My recent studies in Korean actually bear relevance to this point. In Korea, the letter for "w" is actually a combination of "u/o" and the appropriate vowel. For instance, the verb "to learn" is "pay - ooh - gi" (배우기) but in its conjugated form, "pay - weo*h - yoh" (배워요). But this really is a contraction of "pay - ooh - eoh - yoh." Notice that "ooh" (= English long u) and "eoh" (= between English "ah" and "oh") combine to make "weoh." This "w" is basically identical to the "w" glide in English. The genius of Korean is to represent the sound not by an independent grapheme but rather by the combination of the two vowels -- just as Latin does (uagio, uado, uenia, etc.)

I hope this provides at least a modicum of phonetic respectability to that underdog, the poor beset besieged and besmirched English w!

champion of all poor and underpriveleged semivocalic glides,

David

eo* can't be represented by any English vowel, lying somewhere between "ah" and "oh"
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Postby cantator » Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:30 am

Lucus Eques wrote:Gentlemen, I propose we convene on Skype to discuss this matter together as soon as possible.


Good idea. I set up the Skype client for Linux last night, it works fine but I need a better microphone. My expensive studio mics aren't adequate for my soundcard's mic input. :)

I'll pick up a new mic today and will notify the list when I'm good to go.

It's so hard to describe sound; you really just need to hear it.


Reading Lord's quoted material I must say that the grammarians really gave it their best shot. Describing sound by the mechanics of speech is indeed a difficult task.

It would make these discussions go a lot faster, and I bet we're actually agreeing more than we realize.


Very likely. I am thinking a lot about the information shared here, it's an education for me. And my estimation of the work of the grammarians has risen ten-fold. They were doing fundamental work in linguistics before the term was known, and we do owe them a lot.

So does anyone know the birthdays of Priscian or Donatus ? I'm always looking for new reasons to celebrate... :)
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Postby cantator » Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:17 pm

cantator wrote:I'll pick up a new mic today and will notify the list when I'm good to go.


Done. Nothing like a visit to Wal-Mart at 7 AM to jump-start the day.

Lucus, we'll need to run some tests, I'm still getting the hang of using Skype (it's pretty easy though) and my audio system. I definitely need to fiddle with some mixer settings for the best balance, but it appears to be working now.

So how do we make a conference call via Skype ?
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Postby cdm2003 » Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:41 pm

cantator wrote:So how do we make a conference call via Skype ?


I'd like to join in, if that's okay...I'm still at the early stages of learning how to read Latin aloud and would benefit greatly from hearing the "big-guns" discussing the finer points.

Thanks,
Chris
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Postby Lucus Eques » Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:34 pm

Cantator, my Skype name is SignorAmadeo, and that's all we need. Just message me, or give me your Skype name here, and tell me a time when you'd like to meet and I'll tell you if I can be there. Then we can invite any other's who'd like to join.

Ditto for the others. I'd like to talk to everyone individually, or as a group; I would enjoy the experience. As for conference call, it's a button in the upper right hand corner; easy to do.

Valetote.
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Postby TADW_Elessar » Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:39 am

Then we can invite any other's who'd like to join.

Sure. Do let me know ;)
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Postby cantator » Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:28 am

Lucus Eques wrote:Cantator, my Skype name is SignorAmadeo, and that's all we need. Just message me, or give me your Skype name here, and tell me a time when you'd like to meet and I'll tell you if I can be there. Then we can invite any other's who'd like to join.


Okay, I have everything working well now, or as well as it's going to work with my old 800 MHz machine. Fortunately I have a fast broadband connection. There's a noticeable latency on replies, about what I would expect from making an overseas long-distance call, but the reception sound quality is 1st-rate

I am cantator1. I'm located in NW Ohio, and as I write this message the time here is about 6:15 in the morning (I'm an early riser). I'm available from noon to 3:30 Tuesday through Friday, and all day Monday. Weekends I'm in the country and probably won't be able to communicate via Skype on my antique laptop (it's only a PII 366).

I'lll probably be unavailable today, I have an article to write that must go in asap, sorry. Is there a good time for you tomorrow ?

Ditto for the others. I'd like to talk to everyone individually, or as a group; I would enjoy the experience. As for conference call, it's a button in the upper right hand corner; easy to do.


Cool, thanks !
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Postby Lucus Eques » Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:29 am

Great! Well, how about we meet tomorrow (Thursday) afternoon, say around 12:30 pm. Loquerisne Latine, care cantator? Iulianus et ego cras Latine loquemur, ut mos est inter nos, ergo et Latine et de rebus Latinis dicendis quacumque praeferamus lingua sermocinabimur.

As for others interested in continuing this debate uiua uoce, or who just want to have a live Latin conversation, I'll be around tomorrow afternoon from about 12:30 pm ET.
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Postby cantator » Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:08 pm

Lucus Eques wrote:Great! Well, how about we meet tomorrow (Thursday) afternoon, say around 12:30 pm. Loquerisne Latine, care cantator?


Nequeo loquere Latine. :( Scriptor et cantator rusticus in deserto Ohio solus. Huc enim Anglico urbano nemo loquitur, ignorantia orbis totus et stupiditate se immersit. Loci in medio nulli obduro, et vicus hic suget.

But I will tune in. :)
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Postby Lucus Eques » Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:27 pm

Certainly! But, the only way I learned to speak Latin was by trying, so you're welcome to join in and practice.
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Postby Hu » Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:39 pm

I'll try to be there, but by coincidence, my Latin conversation club (currently consisting of me and an Ancient Studies major in his last semester) meets 12-1 on Tuesdays and Thursdays. I suppose I could being my laptop and use the university wireless network, though. We should finish around 12:40.

My Skype name is wayne.s.clark.
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Postby Lucus Eques » Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:51 pm

No that's fine timing, Wayne; 1:00 is when the real Latin speaking should begin. But I'll be around before that to talk English and 'vau' stuff.
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Postby Lucus Eques » Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:26 pm

I'm on Skype right now, and I'll be here till mid afternoon.
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Postby Hu » Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:11 pm

Well, it was fun today, even if we didn't quite get to discuss all that much about v. (Although the aspirated labiovelar hypothesis for "nix" brings interest, etsi falsum esset).

Spero vos mox auditurus esse.
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Postby cantator » Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:54 pm

Hu wrote:Spero vos mox auditurus esse.


I'm sorry to have missed the event. As it turns out, noon is not an especially good time for me. When will the next call take place ?
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Postby Lucus Eques » Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:51 pm

Cantator, you and I could set something up this weekend. When do you have time Saturday?
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Postby Interaxus » Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:25 pm

Hi,

I don't suppose there's any chance of us shy neophytes getting to hear what your discussions in Latin sound like? For example in the form of a downloadable recorded excerpt or even a brief spoken summary in Latin by one of you bold adepts.

It would be really inspiring to some of us!

Cheers,
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Postby Lucus Eques » Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:20 am

That sounds like a neat idea. I thought there were some way to record conversations in Skype, but I haven't yet found it. Does anyone know of it? By a summary, how do you mean?

Otherwise, Interaxe, you could just listen in on our conversations; I'm fairly sure Julian and I wouldn't mind.
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Postby cantator » Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:42 am

Lucus Eques wrote:That sounds like a neat idea. I thought there were some way to record conversations in Skype, but I haven't yet found it. Does anyone know of it?


The software mixer for your soundcard may include a loopback channel. This channel carries any signal and can be selected for record status, letting you record any sound passing through the card.

In Linux we have a little gem called JACK. With JACK I can route audio signals freely between applications, e.g. I could run Skype output through a reverb plugin or into an audio recorder. I'm not sure how you do the same thing in Windows or the Mac (JACK supports OSX though).

I'll check the Linux Skype client for an internal recorder. That would certainly make things easier.
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Postby Hu » Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:14 am

According to the Skype help:
Skype help wrote:Currently you cannot record your Skypecast from within Skype, however, there are third party products that let you record conversations.


Edit: A quick Internet search brings up this.
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Postby Iulianus » Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:24 am

Lucus Eques wrote:Otherwise, Interaxe, you could just listen in on our conversations; I'm fairly sure Julian and I wouldn't mind.


Minime vero! Si alios adiuvare possim tecum ac aliis colloquens, mihi nihil molis est! Sed egomet quoque alios invitare volo ut nobiscum colloquantur, nam unum Latine audiendo melius est: colloquier scillicet!
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Postby TADW_Elessar » Fri Sep 15, 2006 5:05 pm

And here I am. I gave a try to Cicero's most famous oration, the result is not excellent but I'm too tired now to continue recording (and I'm not an actor) :) . Basketball training is killing me :D

I hope you'll also find the rest of the article (and the previous ones in the "Catiline" series) interesting.

Here it is: De M. Ciceronis orationibus in Catilinam, caput tertium.

Quid de eo sentitis? :wink:
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Postby cantator » Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:12 am

Lucus Eques wrote:Cantator, you and I could set something up this weekend. When do you have time Saturday?


Ave Lucus:

I'll be home this afternoon, not sure when I'll go back to town but I'll post a note here to let you know I'm on Skype.
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Postby Lucus Eques » Sat Sep 16, 2006 1:09 pm

Sounds good!
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Postby bellum paxque » Sat Sep 16, 2006 1:34 pm

Psst. Your comments and opinions about an audio section are needed on the advisory board.
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Postby cantator » Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:24 pm

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Postby bellum paxque » Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:17 pm

And here I am. I gave a try to Cicero's most famous oration, the result is not excellent but I'm too tired now to continue recording...
Quid de eo sentitis?


Matthaee, thanks for your energetic recording! The pace is perhaps more rapid and the tone a tad bit more...frantic?...than I would have expected, but the pronunciation sounds spot on to me. In fact, my main objection, at least after listening twice, is the lack of a raised pitch on the crucial "Vivit?" question. That is, it doesn't sound like a question to me.

I hope to listen to it some more, as I've been doing with the rest of the enjoyable recordings made here at textkit, in the morning as I walk to work. Maybe you can find some time to record another passage!

(If I have any more constructive advice, I'll add it later.)

Regards,

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Postby TADW_Elessar » Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:34 pm

The pace is perhaps more rapid and the tone a tad bit more...frantic?...than I would have expected

And yes, you're right indeed :lol:
I suppose that's because I am Italian, and it seems that we use to speak quite faster than Englishmen do.

my main objection, at least after listening twice, is the lack of a raised pitch on the crucial "Vivit?" question. That is, it doesn't sound like a question to me.

I was so concentrated on pronouncing the two "v"s in quick succession and making the first "i" different from the second one that I forgot to raise the pitch in the second syllable. Maybe also because I could not without a falsetto. :D

(If I have any more constructive advice, I'll add it later.)

I'll be eagerly waiting for it ;)
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Postby Lucus Eques » Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:52 pm

Amice, why would it be effort to pronounce the second 'i' differently from the first? It's the same sound, just longer; it comes naturally to the parlante Italiano to lengthen the stressed syllable. Anyway, you pulled it off great.
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Postby Amadeus » Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:45 pm

TADW_Elessar wrote:And here I am. I gave a try to Cicero's most famous oration, the result is not excellent but I'm too tired now to continue recording (and I'm not an actor) :)

Quid de eo sentitis? :wink:


My, that certainly was... different. Good job! I love it that someone from Italia finally read some latin and decided to post it on the web. Not only because of the pronunciaton, but also the speed to which we of Mediterranean language are accustomed to. (Prose shouldn't be as affected as poetry.) Would you mind recording someday Medieval Latin? I've heard the Pope, but he has a German accent, so that's not very good.

Also, perhaps my ears are full of wax, but did I hear a bilabial fricative "v" mixed with the English W?

Vale, amice!

P.S.: Your voice reminded me of Bob Dylan :lol:
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.
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Postby TADW_Elessar » Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:27 pm

Also, perhaps my ears are full of wax, but did I hear a bilabial fricative "v" mixed with the English W?

I tried to do the first, but the latter may have slipped in in some passages ;)

Would you mind recording someday Medieval Latin?

Do you have any suggestion about the text?
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Postby Amadeus » Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:38 pm

TADW_Elessar wrote:Do you have any suggestion about the text?


So, do I take that as a yes? :D Perhaps something from St. Augustine's Confessiones? Let me look for a passage about time, and then I'll get back to ya.

Vale.
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Postby Iulianus » Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:44 pm

I'd hardly say the Confessiones are Medieval Latin (Latin was stil his mother language); strictly speaking it's either Christian Latin or Late Latin.
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