Mangeot

[Moerus]

Hey everyone, <br /><br />I was reading a neo-latin poem of N. Mangeot. The poem is entitled 'Vesper'. It sounds really great, but it's a neo-latin one. So some words are used in a different way as in classical Latin. I can perfectly translate it, but I am not really sure of everything. Can someone find an online - translation of this poet by this German neo-latin poet? I searched, but I don't find it. The difficulties are these; <br /><br />Offerunt flores patinis coruscis tura suprema. (probs)<br /><br />De lacu scandunt nebulae profundo (no prob), <br />stant ut in somno calami trementes. (probs)<br />Saepe ploratus per aquas euntes<br />vadit amarus. <br /><br />I can understand the Latin, but I really think the poet was drunk, when he wrote it! Can someone explain the sense of these lines? The translation is easy, but what's the meaning, per omnes deos!<br /><br />Thnx, <br />Moerus<br />

[Moerus]

Seems to be a difficult one, no one replied yet!

[Lumen_et_umbra]

If your difficulty is found because of the word 'ut,' seemingly having been misplaced; 'ut' doubles as the word 'as,' I believe.

[Moerus]

Thank you, but I knew that already. I'm searching for the meaning, an interpretation, not a translation. <br /><br />But thanx.

[benissimus]

Hmm, what does that poem have to do with a Vesper? I can only vaguely understand it, and you seem significantly more knowledgable than I. Nevertheless, only good can come of discussion <br /><br />Could you write what you think it means, and what your problems with it were exactly?

[Moerus]

Well, the problem is the interpretation. I understand every word, but what does that have to do with an evening? <br /><br />The entire poem; <br /><br />Vesper<br /><br />Mortuum solem gemit alba nubes,<br />sola quae tranat mare purpuratum.<br />Offerunt flores patinis coruscis <br />tura suprema.<br /><br />De lacu scandunt nebulae profundo, <br />stant ut in somno calami trementes.<br />Saepe ploratus per aquas euntes<br />vadit amarus. <br /><br />Iamque se densis oriens tenebris <br />contegit totum, sed in occidente<br />stella solatur subito coorta<br />luce serena.<br /><br />My literal translation;<br /><br />A white cloud complains of the dead sun, <br />the only one which crosses the purple sea. <br />The flowers bring the highest incenses <br />to glittering basins.<br /><br />...<br /><br />I began this at 12 a.m. and I fell asleep, so now it's 6 a.m. and I begin my day. So, I will post the rest of my litteral translation later. But some of you can already torture their minds with this second sentence. Flowers bring incenses? What does this mean and What is the relation to vesper? That was in fact my initial question. So, great minds of textkit (all of you of course) torture your brains and help me out, me miserum!<br /><br />Thnx in advance, <br /><br />Moerus.

[Keesa]

Well, I certainly couldn't have translated it, but now that it's translated, I think I can help you understand it. <br /><br />A white cloud complains of the dead sun, <br /><br />If Vesper means "evening", I would say that the sun setting for the night is what he's referring to here; it could also mean a particularly "bland" sunset, where the sky is a very pale, almost white, shade of blue, and the clouds are also white. <br /><br />the only one which crosses the purple sea. <br /><br />My guess would be, there is only one cloud in the sky as he writes. <br /><br />The flowers bring the highest incenses <br />to glittering basins.<br /><br />Okay, here, I think the trouble is that there are two meanings to the word "incense." One is "to arouse extreme anger," which certainly doesn't fit, but the other means a sweet scent, or more specifically certain spices which, when burned, offer up a sweet scent. You'll read, sometimes, of people "offering up incenses on the altars of their gods." I think that is the kind of incense the poet refers to. "highest incenses" would perhaps mean the sweetest, purest, and best kinds of incenses. It might be worthwhile to note that there are many flowers which smell the sweetest in the evening, after a long, sunny day, when the sun is going down. <br /><br />As for "glittering basins," my only guess here is poetic license. ;D<br /><br />I hope this helps. <br /><br />Keesa

[Skylax]

Offerunt flores patinis coruscis tura suprema. (probs)<br />"Flowers offer from their fluttering (or "shining") cassolettes supreme incenses."<br />(I believe that flowers corolla is here compared with a censer, where incense is burning)<br /><br />De lacu scandunt nebulae profundo (no prob),<br />(Allusion to rising fog)<br />stant ut in somno calami trementes. (probs)<br />"as in a dream (but it would be SOMNIO: SOMNO means "sleep") there are fluttering reeds"<br />Saepe ploratus per aquas euntes<br />vadit amarus.<br />"Often a bitter sob goes away through the fleeing waters".<br /><br />Does it look plausible?

[Keesa]

[quote author=Skylax link=board=3;threadid=581;start=0#5640 date=1063111542]<br />Offerunt flores patinis coruscis tura suprema. (probs)<br />"Flowers offer from their fluttering (or "shining") cassolettes supreme incenses."<br />(I believe that flowers corolla is here compared with a censer, where incense is burning)<br /><br />That would explain those glittering basins! ;D<br /><br />Does it look plausible?<br />[/quote]<br /><br />More than plausible to me, anyway. Then again, I don't read Latin that well yet! <br /><br />Keesa

[Moerus]

Thank you, thank you, thank you. <br /><br />Did I say 'thank you' yet? You are all sweet angels. I came to the same conclusion as you all, but it took me a few days and even then I wasn't sure. But cause you all think the same, it must be correct. Although I think poems are always open to more than one explanation, <br /><br />so thanx, <br /><br />Moerus.

[Keesa]

You're welcome. I'm glad I could help...<br /><br />Keesa

[benissimus]

Well, I'm glad you all liked my poem.<br /><br /> -Mangeot

[Keesa]

Are you teasing? <br />

[Moerus]

Realy good joke, benissimus!<br /><br />Do you also know Mangeot's first name, in which country he lives? <br /><br />So we can be really sure of it, cause I know the ansers!

[benissimus]

I think he lives in France. Err... I live in France...<br /><br />Ok I surrender. I am not Mangeot, but you must admit that he bears a striking resemblance to me, eh?

[Keesa]

He certainly shares your way with words! <br /><br />Keesa

[bingley]

You mean he's usually to be seen brandishing a knife and clutching an eyeball? ;D

[benissimus]

Excellent

[Moerus]

I think he lives in France. Err... I live in France...<br /><br />Ok I surrender. I am not Mangeot, but you must admit that he bears a striking resemblance to me, eh?

<br /><br />Not at all, Nicolao Mangeaot lives in Germany, but he has a Frensh name and an Italian first name. You would never find that out, unless you know him or are him. So busted!

[Keesa]

[quote author=bingley link=board=3;threadid=581;start=15#5663 date=1063157215]<br />You mean he's usually to be seen brandishing a knife and clutching an eyeball? ;D<br />[/quote]<br /><br />No, I was referring more to his way of concealing incredible confusion under an inimitable elegance of expression.

[benissimus]

Hide my confusion? Ha! What confusion?

[Keesa]

Not your confusion...confusion for everybody else.

[benissimus]

Is Mangeot still alive?

[Moerus]

I think so. If not, he died yesterday or something like that.

[Keesa]

[quote author=bingley link=board=3;threadid=581;start=15#5663 date=1063157215]<br />You mean he's usually to be seen brandishing a knife and clutching an eyeball? ;D<br />[/quote]<br /><br />By the way, Benissimus, I like your new icon much better! ;D

[benissimus]

Oh so you dislike my menacing and violent boy with a weapon, but you like the image of a horribly slain martyr? I just don't understand!

[Keesa]

Bingo. ;D

[benissimus]

Ok, now I see the confusion you were talking about

[Keesa]

Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that a dead person is less...um...threatening? ;D <br /><br />Who is your icon, anyway?

[benissimus]

Hypatia

[Keesa]

Ahh! Yes! <br /><br />I've never heard of her. ;D

[bingley]

From Edward Gibbon's History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire: <br /><br />Hypatia, the daughter of Theon the mathematician, was initiated in her father's studies; her learned comments have elucidated the geometry of Apollonius and Diophantus, and she publicly taught, both at Athens and Alexandria, the philosophy of Plato and Aristotle. In the bloom of beauty, and in the maturity of wisdom, the modest maid refused her lovers and instructed her disciples; the persons most illustrious for their rank or merit were impatient to visit the female philosopher; and Cyril beheld, with a jealous eye, the gorgeous train of horses and slaves who crowded the door of her academy. A rumor was spread among the Christians, that the daughter of Theon was the only obstacle to the reconciliation of the praefect and the archbishop; and that obstacle was speedily removed. On a fatal day, in the holy season of Lent, Hypatia was torn from her chariot, stripped naked, dragged to the church, and inhumanly butchered by the hands of Peter the reader, and a troop of savage and merciless fanatics: her flesh was scraped from her bones with sharp cyster shells, and her quivering limbs were delivered to the flames. The just progress of inquiry and punishment was stopped by seasonable gifts; but the murder of Hypatia has imprinted an indelible stain on the character and religion of Cyril of Alexandria. <br /><br />Date 415 AD. Cyril was later made a saint.

[benissimus]

Vae eis dierectis!