Question about Livy...
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Question about Livy...
Salvete!
I am reading a composition book and one of the exercises asks to read a paragraph of Livy and then answer questions about it. It seems straight-forward enough, though I don't really understand the constructions used in a particular sentence. I've been going over this sentence for about a month and finally looked up a translation. I have no idea how the translation comes from the original sentence so I thought I would post here and see if anyone could help explain how.
Original sentence from Livy, III, 26: Operae pretium est audire qui omnia prae divitiis humana spernunt neque honori magno locum neque virtuti putant esse, nisi ubi effuse affluant opes.
The best I could do on my own was to translate "operae pretium est audire qui" as "It is worthwhile to hear how." Next, in "omnia prae divitiis humana spernunt neque honori magno locum neque virtuti putant esse" I see "all men spurn for the sake of riches" and "neither for great honor" and "nor esteem virtue." I have no idea what to make of the use of "locum" and "esse," and I think this is what's keeping me of seeing the meaning of the sentence.
I have a copy of a B&N translation that goes as follows: "What followed merits the attention of those who despise all human qualities in comparison with riches, and think there is no room for great honours or for worth but amidst a profusion of wealth." This sentence leaves me very confused as I can't see where the translator pulled "What followed," nor can I see why "neither...nor" is absent from the translation, though I suspect that "neque...locum...neque" is translated as "no room for...or...". Further, "merits the attention of those" confuses me, as I assume this is what the translator has done with "operae pretium est audire qui," but I don't see "qui" as being anything but the subject of the paragraph or the adverb translating to "how."
I apologize if this is a silly post...after all...this is from the very first chapter of the Minkova readings in Latin prose. I had the same amount of trouble with the very first sentence but after the requisite month of stewing over it, it became clear. I'm not asking for a translation...just any comments as to how the Livy got to the English in the cheap B&N paperback.
Many thanks,
Chris
I am reading a composition book and one of the exercises asks to read a paragraph of Livy and then answer questions about it. It seems straight-forward enough, though I don't really understand the constructions used in a particular sentence. I've been going over this sentence for about a month and finally looked up a translation. I have no idea how the translation comes from the original sentence so I thought I would post here and see if anyone could help explain how.
Original sentence from Livy, III, 26: Operae pretium est audire qui omnia prae divitiis humana spernunt neque honori magno locum neque virtuti putant esse, nisi ubi effuse affluant opes.
The best I could do on my own was to translate "operae pretium est audire qui" as "It is worthwhile to hear how." Next, in "omnia prae divitiis humana spernunt neque honori magno locum neque virtuti putant esse" I see "all men spurn for the sake of riches" and "neither for great honor" and "nor esteem virtue." I have no idea what to make of the use of "locum" and "esse," and I think this is what's keeping me of seeing the meaning of the sentence.
I have a copy of a B&N translation that goes as follows: "What followed merits the attention of those who despise all human qualities in comparison with riches, and think there is no room for great honours or for worth but amidst a profusion of wealth." This sentence leaves me very confused as I can't see where the translator pulled "What followed," nor can I see why "neither...nor" is absent from the translation, though I suspect that "neque...locum...neque" is translated as "no room for...or...". Further, "merits the attention of those" confuses me, as I assume this is what the translator has done with "operae pretium est audire qui," but I don't see "qui" as being anything but the subject of the paragraph or the adverb translating to "how."
I apologize if this is a silly post...after all...this is from the very first chapter of the Minkova readings in Latin prose. I had the same amount of trouble with the very first sentence but after the requisite month of stewing over it, it became clear. I'm not asking for a translation...just any comments as to how the Livy got to the English in the cheap B&N paperback.
Many thanks,
Chris
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Salve Chris,
Though I am still learning myself, I hope I can help you out with a couple of pointers.
Hope this helps you out. If you need anymore help - don't hesitate to ask.
Iulianus
P.S. To the other board members, who are much better acquainted with Latin, please feel free to remark any mistakes or shortcomings I may have made. Thanks!
Though I am still learning myself, I hope I can help you out with a couple of pointers.
qui can't function (as far as I know) as a conjunction - I think quomodo is the word you're thinking of - so therefore qui here must be nominative, right - an thus subject - ? With that in mind, the following probably makes a lot more sense. Remember though, qui here can't be an interrogative - if that was the case, it would've been spernant (indirect question) instead of spernunt .The best I could do on my own was to translate "operae pretium est audire qui" as "It is worthwhile to hear how."
humana here is an adjective, which belongs to a noun in the neuter plural (either that, or feminine singular, but there is no such noun in this sentence). Now that you've figured out what the subject is in this sentence, it should be a bit easier to figure out what the object of spernunt is.Next, in "omnia prae divitiis humana spernunt neque honori magno locum neque virtuti putant esse" I see "all men spurn for the sake of riches"
locum is what case? And esse just happens to be an infinitive... Now, since there is no clear object to putant, maybe this construction can serve as its object.I have no idea what to make of the use of "locum" and "esse," and I think this is what's keeping me of seeing the meaning of the sentence.
Hope this helps you out. If you need anymore help - don't hesitate to ask.
Iulianus
P.S. To the other board members, who are much better acquainted with Latin, please feel free to remark any mistakes or shortcomings I may have made. Thanks!
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Operae pretium est audire qui omnia prae divitiis humana spernunt neque honori magno locum neque virtuti putant esse, nisi ubi effuse affluant opes.
A tough opening to the sentence. Here are a few more tips.
My translation, by the way, is a bit awkward , put literally like that. Hence the verbal gymnastics of the translator. ("Merits the attention" seems really pretentious to me, by the way.)
-David
A tough opening to the sentence. Here are a few more tips.
"What followed," it seems, is implied in audire; i.e., to listen to (what followed).This sentence leaves me very confused as I can't see where the translator pulled "What followed"...
First, operae pretium esse is an idiom meaning "it's worth the trouble," as you seem to know. Second, supply eos before audire, the antecedent of qui. Namely, operae pretium est eos audire, qui... = "It's worthwhile that they listen [to what's coming] who..." It's pretty common in Livy, as elsewhere, to have a relative pronoun meaning something like "those who," "one who," etc. Here it's just a bit harder to guess the case of the implied antecedent.Further, "merits the attention of those" confuses me, as I assume this is what the translator has done with "operae pretium est audire qui," but I don't see "qui" as being anything but the subject of the paragraph or the adverb translating to "how."
My translation, by the way, is a bit awkward , put literally like that. Hence the verbal gymnastics of the translator. ("Merits the attention" seems really pretentious to me, by the way.)
-David
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Hi,
It is worth while for those who despise all human interests in comparison with riches, and think that there is no scope for high honours or for virtue except where lavish wealth abounds to listen to this story.
This seems to be Livy's prefatory remark to his tale of Cincinnatus, a super-modest old guy snatched out of rural retirement by a panicky Senate to play Dictator for a spell and defeat the enemy threatening Rome. Having done which, he immediately resigned (unlike some modern Italians). A bit of context always helps ...
Int
I found a slightly better translation on the Web (by Roberts):Operae pretium est audire qui omnia prae divitiis humana spernunt neque honori magno locum neque virtuti putant esse, nisi ubi effuse affluant opes.
It is worth while for those who despise all human interests in comparison with riches, and think that there is no scope for high honours or for virtue except where lavish wealth abounds to listen to this story.
This seems to be Livy's prefatory remark to his tale of Cincinnatus, a super-modest old guy snatched out of rural retirement by a panicky Senate to play Dictator for a spell and defeat the enemy threatening Rome. Having done which, he immediately resigned (unlike some modern Italians). A bit of context always helps ...
Int
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Gratias vobis!
I think I'm understanding this a little better:
It is worthwhile for those [implied as the subject to audire] who spurn [qui...spernunt] all human qualities [omnia humana] for the sake of riches (reckoning neither towards [my verbal gymnastics.. locum putant + dat.] great honor nor virtue unless they can enjoy an effusion of wealth) to hear what happened [audire...esse].
This seems a tough sentence to put into English, at least to me, simply because the meat of Livy's sentence is focused within a relative clause as opposed to being delivered in the main. I think that's why I found it tough... it certainly is not your average English construction.
Anyway, many thanks for so much help. I should have asked sooner.
Chris
I think I'm understanding this a little better:
It is worthwhile for those [implied as the subject to audire] who spurn [qui...spernunt] all human qualities [omnia humana] for the sake of riches (reckoning neither towards [my verbal gymnastics.. locum putant + dat.] great honor nor virtue unless they can enjoy an effusion of wealth) to hear what happened [audire...esse].
This seems a tough sentence to put into English, at least to me, simply because the meat of Livy's sentence is focused within a relative clause as opposed to being delivered in the main. I think that's why I found it tough... it certainly is not your average English construction.
Anyway, many thanks for so much help. I should have asked sooner.
Chris
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Okay...I've backed up a sentence in the same text (Livy III, 26) and have come across what seems to me an awkward phrase:
Could someone point out where the negation is coming from? Am I not understanding a colloqialism?
Many thanks,
Chris
I understand (I think) most of the sentence except for in quo cum parum praesidii videretur. I see videretur as being "it should seem" but the same translations of the text I had been looking at before state that the construction translates as "but deeming him unequal to their defence" or "but as he did nothing equal to the emergency." Unfortunately, I don't see where either translator finds "unequal" or "nothing equal" as "parum praesidii videretur" just looks like "it should seem (that he) was equal to (their) defence."...Nautium consulem arcessunt. In quo cum parum praesidii videretur dictatoremque dici placeret qui rem perculsam restitueret, L. Quinctius Cincinnatus consensu omnium dicitur.
Could someone point out where the negation is coming from? Am I not understanding a colloqialism?
Many thanks,
Chris
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Of course now it looks easier. I think I got tunnel-visioned thinking of parum as the accusative of par instead of as the indeclinable adjective or as parvum.
I was thinking that in quo belonged to a construction with praesidii as partitive genitive, i.e., "in relation to that need [in quo] of their defence [praesidii]." Now, with what you said, it looks as if "in quo cum parum praesidii videretur" can translate to "when he seemed insufficient in relation to their defence." Perhaps more freely: "Since Nautius seemed inadequate for their defence..."
I was thinking that in quo belonged to a construction with praesidii as partitive genitive, i.e., "in relation to that need [in quo] of their defence [praesidii]." Now, with what you said, it looks as if "in quo cum parum praesidii videretur" can translate to "when he seemed insufficient in relation to their defence." Perhaps more freely: "Since Nautius seemed inadequate for their defence..."
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