Irregularities

Sigma · Post by **Sigma** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 4:47 pm

I wish to begin Latin along with my studies of Russian, and I'm wonderin how irregular Latin is. I know that Russian has a lot of irregular verbs, etc. and I'm wondering if I'd encounter the same thing with Latin. Also, what's all this I'm reading about the usage of v/w/u? And lastly, my Russian is at an intermediate stage, but I still need a lot of work before I'm going to be fluent, namely a larger vocabulary. Do you think learning Latin would hinder my progress in Russian a lot?

Thanks!

(I realize the irony that my username is a Greek letter and I'm learning Latin)

spiphany · Post by **spiphany** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 7:27 pm

It depends on what you mean by irregularities. Latin has very few really irregular verbs (like the English is/am/are/was); in general, the rules for conjugating verbs and declining nouns are applied consistently. There are a fair number of 'irregularities' within these rules, though. For example, all verbs of the third conjugation have certain differences from verbs of the first and second conjugations. And Latin nouns and pronouns can be a bit of a pain.

What you probably will find is that Latin involves a lot of rote memorization at the beginning--this is partly because of the nature of the language, partly because of how it's generally taught.

I can't say whether learning Latin will hinder your Russian studies. There's always a risk of getting confused when learning more than one language at once, and mixing up vocabulary and grammar. And of course learning two languages requires more time than learning one. But if you're willing to devote the necessary energy to both, there's no reason why your Russian should suffer. My experience has also been that the language confusion isn't as bad when studying a dead language, since you don't learn to use it and think in it the same way.

The discussion of v/w/u is something you don't need to worry about too much at this point. Briefly: The Romans used the same letter in writing for both the vowel u and the consonant/semi-vowel v, which was pronounced in classical times more like our modern w. Most beginning texts will differentiate between the two.

Hope that helps,
Brenda

Sigma · Post by **Sigma** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:08 pm

Aaah, I see. Thank you!

One of the reasons I'm considering learning Latin, is that I don't have to learn to think in the language. I'm probably not going to have to speak it or listen to it, so none of the spontaneity that is needed for a living language like Russian is needed. Also, seeing in how 60% of English words are derived from Latin, then a few more words that I may recognize from Russian (dom(a/us/um...) = house?), I don't think it will require study as intense as that of Russian. In Russian I'm aiming to be able to listen and partake in conversation, watch TV etc, where as Latin I really only hope to be able to read classic literature and perhaps write short stories with it. I really don't care if it takes me 5 years or more to achieve this.

It's nice to hear that Latin isn't full of irregularities. It'll be a nice break from the seemingly endless number of them in Russian. If I was to devote 15-30 minutes of Latin study per day, how much progress could I make? Although I could devote more time, I really want to make Russian my primary language.

spiphany · Post by **spiphany** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 3:37 pm

If I was to devote 15-30 minutes of Latin study per day, how much progress could I make?

I have no idea. Learning languages is such an individual thing. And there are so many factors to consider. How were you planning on learning Latin? A course in school? Independent study?

I took both Latin and German in high school. My own experience is that I had to spend more time studying for Latin than I ever did for German because of the memorization involved, but it probably wasn't more than a half hour a night either. The first year or two of Latin is usually focused on grammar. Later on, when you start reading unadapted texts, the time expenditure tends to be significantly higher--unless you have a really good vocabulary, most of it is spent looking up words in the dictionary.

Sigma · Post by **Sigma** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 4:20 pm

I'm planning on learning independantly for now. I find learning languages independantly is much better as you get a course tailored to you needs.

I've borrowed a copy Wheelock's Latin, and I've begun reading the O'Dooge book. It does seem like a lot of just memorizing gramatical endings, which isn't too difficult for me. Gratia!

Sigma · Post by **Sigma** » Thu Dec 29, 2005 11:17 pm

Two questions. Firstly, which of the aforementioned Latin textbooks is more comprehensive, or are they about equal? Secondly, my dictionary lists all the verbs ending in 'o', rather than the infinitive. How is one to know which verb conjugation it is without the infinitive?

Stancel · Post by **Stancel** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:40 am

Sigma wrote: If I was to devote 15-30 minutes of Latin study per day, how much progress could I make? Although I could devote more time, I really want to make Russian my primary language.

I think that if you were to do that every day consistently, you would make a lot of progress.

Stancel · Post by **Stancel** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:43 am

Sigma wrote:Secondly, my dictionary lists all the verbs ending in 'o', rather than the infinitive. How is one to know which verb conjugation it is without the infinitive?

I want to know why this is too.

Andrus · Post by **Andrus** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 9:43 am

Nielius · Post by **Nielius** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 2:33 pm

I once heard Russian was the most logical language, with very few irregularities instead, but I have no idea myself. Are you having a hard time studying Russian?

Sigma · Post by **Sigma** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 3:52 pm

Aahh, so my online dictioary sucks. Are there any good online dictionaries?

Nielius wrote:I once heard Russian was the most logical language, with very few irregularities instead, but I have no idea myself. Are you having a hard time studying Russian?

Well it's sometimes logical, but it has a ton of inconsistancies. There are words that look like they should be first declension but are second etc. The grammar is fairly straight foreward in my opinion, but I suppose it would be difficult if you didn't get the cases, which are slightly different than latin; Nominative, accustive, genative, dative, prepositional, and instrumental. I find numbers to be the most annyoing aspect of the language as every single number declines.

Right now I have the grammar down fairly well, and now it's just a matter of building my tiny vocabulary, and learning to speak and listen which I suck at. I decided to learn Latin now too, because as I said earlier, a lot of the words are nice and short, or have visible roots in English. Russian enjoy's large words; something I don't believe Latin has too many of, or not nearly as many as Russian.

Andrus · Post by **Andrus** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:02 pm

Sigma wrote:Aahh, so my online dictioary sucks. Are there any good online dictionaries?

Well the best one I ever found (and I think it is very good) is Words:

http://users.erols.com/whitaker/words.htm

This is the link where you can download it. But you can also use it online at:

http://lysy2.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/words.exe

Best regards,

Andrus

Sigma · Post by **Sigma** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 9:26 pm

Ooo, thank you! I'm guessin the . before a vowel means that it is long.

I'm still wondering which of the two textbooks is more comprehensive in what it covers. If I completed both, which would leave me with a better understanding of the Language?

Stancel · Post by **Stancel** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 10:23 pm

Words is like a DOS program or something. They really need to update it.

Amadeus · Post by **Amadeus** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 10:28 pm

Sigma wrote: One of the reasons I'm considering learning Latin, is that I don't have to learn to think in the language.

By the way, does anyone in this forum "think in the language"? One of my goals was to do just that, but if it can't be done, then why should I go through such agony?

nostos · Post by **nostos** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:15 am

Amadeus wrote:
Sigma wrote: One of the reasons I'm considering learning Latin, is that I don't have to learn to think in the language.
By the way, does anyone in this forum "think in the language"? One of my goals was to do just that, but if it can't be done, then why should I go through such agony?

Lucus thinks in the language, as he said in another thread:

Lucus Eques wrote:When I write and speak Latin, I think in Latin, and then so write and speak it.

I am learning to do the same with Lingua Latina. I've written a new defence for it in which I state more conceretely how it teaches you the language etc. but I've decided not to post it because I think most people have had enough of this debate; all it does is rile the nerves.

Anyway I highly recommend the book. It does teach you to think in Latin, and completely does away with all of this 'dead language' nonsense (where you inspect, in stasis, its hallowed corpse). Instead you learn like any other language - and with extreme precision.

Don't let anyone fool you into thinking LL somehow gives up precision simply because it is not terminology-heavy: all the grammar is still there (obviously). The only difference is that grammarians induce general laws, which must always obey the evidence of Latin, and give them names. The laws were there to begin with (again, obviously), unnamed and unthought of by most users of the language (regardless of competence). The direct method on the other hand helps you to infer the language directly, without reference to induced laws. Either way both are doing their work from the exact same source - Latin. There is no loss of grammatical precision in either method.

Amadeus · Post by **Amadeus** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:01 am

nostos wrote: I am learning to do the same with Lingua Latina. I've written a new defence for it in which I state more conceretely how it teaches you the language etc. but I've decided not to post it because I think most people have had enough of this debate; all it does is rile the nerves.

Anyway I highly recommend the book. It does teach you to think in Latin, and completely does away with all of this 'dead language' nonsense (where you inspect, in stasis, its hallowed corpse). Instead you learn like any other language - and with extreme precision.

Ooh, this is exciting! Is the book available from amazon.com? I think I'd like to have it!

Nielius · Post by **Nielius** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 9:47 am

http://www.lingua-latina.dk/

I've just ordered it!

nostos · Post by **nostos** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 1:56 pm

Amadeus wrote:Ooh, this is exciting! Is the book available from amazon.com? I think I'd like to have it!

Yes it's available from Amazon but they're really slow in delivering it. You could order it with the link Nielius gave but because you're in Tijuana, you might want to get it from http://www.pullins.com/txt/LinguaLatina.htm, although Focus hikes up the price and tries to sell you a package (though you can order individual books). In any case I personally think it's worth it. I'm on the first book; I also got the supplement 'Exercitia Latina', which I think helps enormously. You should also record yourself reading from LL and listen to the spoken language, perhaps the best advice I can give.

Also you may want to read THIS in Spanish too

. It makes some pretty brilliant points, but is too harsh I think on the other method.

And you may want to look at the Dowling Method, linked in Lucus' signature. If you use this, and you have some idea of what cases actually mean, it will make learning Latin much much easier.

Amadeus · Post by **Amadeus** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:29 pm

Hey nostos, thanks a bunch!!!

Those links are very helpful indeed.

Now the only thing I need is some cash, mullah, dinero, the green stuff to order Lingua Latina (the basic, nothing fancy

) Hopefully next year, things will start to pick up.

Happy New Year everyone!
(Habeant felix annus novus??)

nostos · Post by **nostos** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 6:53 pm

Amadeus wrote:Hey nostos, thanks a bunch!!!

Those links are very helpful indeed. Now the only thing I need is some cash, mullah, dinero, the green stuff to order Lingua Latina (the basic, nothing fancy ) Hopefully next year, things will start to pick up.

Happy New Year everyone!
(Habeant felix annus novus??)

Yer welcome. I agree with you, you don't need anything fancy. Es mÃ¡s, como hablas espaÃ±ol ya tienes la mayorÃa de la pronunciaciÃ³n latina porque tu idioma nativo viene del latÃn

(if Spanish is your native tongue?), so you don't need any real training in vowels being pronounced correctly

, just a matter of making a couple of minor distinctions with the pronunciation of the consonants: but do record yourself Amadeus, and do read every chapter out loud; this is the most important thing, regardless of the pronunciation you use. One should treat Latin as a language, after all, and not some arcane code meant for private, silent deciphering to pass the time.

Anyway all I'd get if I were you is the first book to start with (money allowing, of course). Take a look at it, see if it suits you. I think you'll be pleased you did

nostos · Post by **nostos** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 9:12 pm

delendum est!