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Q on pronounciation: ch, th, ph, v, c, Eu

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Q on pronounciation: ch, th, ph, v, c, Eu

Postby Verbum » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:59 pm

it's noticed that some people pronounce such letters in different ways!
The Q: what is the correct way to pronounce these letters?
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Re: Q on pronounciation: ch, th, ph, v, c, Eu

Postby adrianus » Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:53 am

Sic classicè ut credo etsi modo vario secundum dictorem si morem graecum non amabat praeter ch, th, ph sonos:
Classically in this way but it could still vary classically, I believe, if you didn't like the Greek ch, ph, th sounds:

ch = k + breath energetically expressed // cum anhelito per vim manifestam expresso
th = t + breath energetically expressed // cum anhelito per vim manifestam expresso
ph = p + breath energetically expressed // cum anhelito per vim manifestam expresso
v = w // vel u consonans
c = k
eu = e + u vel short ey + short oo merging together // inter se labentes

They're pronounced differently again, in later and modern times and between groups.
Aliter post-classicè et his diebus secundum aliquos sonuntur.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Q on pronounciation: ch, th, ph, v, c, Eu

Postby Verbum » Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:42 am

thanks, adrianus

ch = k + breath energetically expressed
th = t + breath energetically expressed
ph = p + breath energetically expressed

Can you give me an example please?
ch is k not the German hard ch, and th is T not th in thanks, right?
and V, I guess in Modern it's pronounced v, but Is it always in Classic w?
eu = e + u vel short ey + short oo merging together

so it's as if we pronounce the English letters eu, right?
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Re: Q on pronounciation: ch, th, ph, v, c, Eu

Postby adrianus » Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:08 pm

Ph, th, ch are aspirated consonants in ancient Greek and Latin, pʰ tʰ kʰ phonetically (IPA). Obviously, there must have been variation. (I personally like "th" as in English "the"). In English in these words, principal, tentative, carcase, they're the sound of the initial consonant but not when the consonant repeats later in the word but I think that's to do with stress as well in English.

As for ch k and th t and v always w (until later), yes, but not "eu" as we pronounce "eu" which is like "ee[as in pee but short]-you[with the y as it's own discernible sound]" in English, but more like "e[as in bet]-oo[as in coo but short]" in Latin and as a diphthong, I would say. "Europa" is "youropa" in English but not so in Latin (eurōpa in Latin but not ūrōpa either in Latin). I would say, "eu" starts with a short "e" with your lips in the position for a short "e" (tight and wide) and then become a short "u", in shifting the lips forward and rounded to complete the sound. It's simply an "e" plus a "u" merging together as in any other diphthong. With the other diphthongs, they are pretty much the litteral sounds of the letters, too, in a nice blend, in my thinking,—provided you believe that long and short letters in Latin have the same sound, where the sounds of short letters are truncated long sounds.

Aevo antiquo, latinè ut graecè (at variè) ph th ck habent haec sonos aspiratos pʰ tʰ kʰ phoneticé, ut sonus anglicè primae litterae consonantis at non in medio repetitae in his (quoad anglicè et ad vim attinet, nisi fallor): "principal, tentative, carcase".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirated_consonant.

Non ut "eu" anglicè, "eu" latiné.

Per e brevem vocalem incipit "eu" diphthongus, per u brevem terminat. Eodem modo conficuntur omnes diphthongi, ut opinor, qui credo eundem sonum communicare et longas et breves vocales, quo sonus brevis sit is longae sectum.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Q on pronounciation: ch, th, ph, v, c, Eu

Postby Verbum » Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:24 pm

Ph, th, ch are aspirated consonants in ancient Greek and Latin, pʰ tʰ kʰ phonetically (IPA). Obviously, there must have been variation. (I personally like "th" as in English "the").

I know of the breathings in Greek, like υἱός. but I guess it's different here. in short, Sir, How do you pronounce the "th" in this name: Etherius? like a "t" or a soft z like in "the"?
and this in: Neophyte. the ph is p or v?

It's simply an "e" plus a "u" merging together as in any other diphthong.

I almost get it. if the "u" is not English like in University. thanks

Aevo antiquo

excuse me, Do you say it W or V ? :)
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Re: Q on pronounciation: ch, th, ph, v, c, Eu

Postby adrianus » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:27 pm

Verbum wrote:
...How do you pronounce the "th" in this name: Etherius? like a "t" or a soft z like in "the"?
and this in: Neophyte. the ph is p or v? [you mean f, I think]
...
Aevo antiquo

excuse me, Do you say it W or V ? :)

Ego ipse qui non facundè loquor sic sono:
ethe
[as in English the]rius
neoph
[as in f]yte
aev
[as in English w]o modo classico-restaurato, aev[as in English v]o in modo italico dicendo (that is, it's good to be able to do both and to switch speaking modes, as you can in your own language)
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Q on pronounciation: ch, th, ph, v, c, Eu

Postby Verbum » Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:12 pm

ya are amazing, Adrianus. I wish I'll catch up with ya soon.
what steps or books for learning Latina do ya commend for Neophytes?
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Re: Q on pronounciation: ch, th, ph, v, c, Eu

Postby adrianus » Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:45 am

I wish you to catch up and overtake as quickly as possible. I think all love Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata who use it.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=latina+lingua&tag=googhydr-21&index=aps&hvadid=15524007950&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=761193912331488890&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&ref=pd_sl_44o9byarl8_b
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/101/Syllabus1.pdf
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/101/index.html
Ut quam celerrime tu me assequaris et antecedas! Omnes amant illum librum (vel illud corpus) de Orberg, id mihi videtur.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Q on pronounciation: ch, th, ph, v, c, Eu

Postby Verbum » Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:19 pm

The book is not in English, but I think the 3rd link will be useful. and what dictionary do you use?
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Re: Q on pronounciation: ch, th, ph, v, c, Eu

Postby adrianus » Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:03 pm

Ordinata secundum utilitatem mihi:
In the order of how frequently I refer to them;
Lewis and Short, Oxford Latin Dictionary, Gaffiot, and Cassell's
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Q on pronounciation: ch, th, ph, v, c, Eu

Postby Alatius » Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:42 am

adrianus wrote:Ph, th, ch are aspirated consonants in ancient Greek and Latin, pʰ tʰ kʰ phonetically (IPA). Obviously, there must have been variation. (I personally like "th" as in English "the").

After the Greek sounds developed to voiceless fricatives, I can imagine post-classical scholars using the same pronunciations in Latin: f (obviously), "th" as in "thorn", and "ch" as in "loch" or "Bach". Perhaps that was also the traditional Latin pronunciation in England? But what is your rationale for using a voiced pronunciation of "th" (as in "the")?
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Re: Q on pronounciation: ch, th, ph, v, c, Eu

Postby adrianus » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:28 pm

Alatius wrote:But what is your rationale for using a voiced pronunciation of "th" (as in "the")?

I read of this pronunciation in Latin in more than one source, Alatius. At the time, I thought it unusual and hard to get used to, so I practiced it and liked it as an exercise in voice control. However, I really can't remember or find what the sources were. I can't remember if they were books or articles and I don't remember what justification was given in them. I was caught by the novelty of the idea and that fact that I couldn't pronounce words easily in that way, so it became a little personal challenge. Maybe they were nutty sources and I've become a nut (if I wasn't one already) by doing this.

Hunc sonum sermonis latini, Alati, in plus quam uno fonte nanctus sum. Alienum id mihi visum est et difficile dictu; proinde exercitavi et amavi ut exercitationem gubernandae vocis. Fontium autem nunc obliviscor et eos non jam invenio. Ignoro utrum libri an capitula sint, non minus argumenta contenta. Novitas huius soni mihi curae fuit quod facile sic exprimere non potui et deinde provocatus sum ut victurus essem. Forsit errant hi fontes et proinde ego erro sic sonando. Certùm est me alioqui priùs erravisse.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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