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pronounciation

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pronounciation

Postby gerrard » Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:01 pm

is there any software or web site can provide accurate pronounciation of LAtin words for us to listen to?
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Postby Cyborg » Sat Jun 25, 2005 6:20 pm

There's one website I like very much:
http://dekart.f.bg.ac.yu/~vnedeljk/VV/

It uses classical pronunciation and it looks good to me, although some people that know Latin better than me disagree. :)
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Postby amans » Sat Jun 25, 2005 6:58 pm

Cyborg wrote:There's one website I like very much:
http://dekart.f.bg.ac.yu/~vnedeljk/VV/

It uses classical pronunciation and it looks good to me, although some people that know Latin better than me disagree. :)


:D Perhaps the disagreement Cyborg refers to is this:

http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-foru ... nunciation

In this thread the following site was also mentioned:

http://www.languages.uncc.edu/classics/ ... laudio.htm

which IMHO is quite good. Now, I don't know where you are Gerrard, but spoken Latin depends very much on the speaker - pronunciation of Latin may quite different depending on your location: Amsterdam, Lisbon, or San Francisco - the difference is audible! Even when following the same general principles.

Best wishes to all.
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Postby Cyborg » Sat Jun 25, 2005 7:54 pm

amans wrote:In this thread the following site was also mentioned:

http://www.languages.uncc.edu/classics/ ... laudio.htm

Wow! Looking at all that makes me wish I had the Wheelock book.

ualete.
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Postby Ioannes » Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:52 pm

just don't listen to a latin speaker with english as mother tongue. they tend to mess up all the sounds. (even though they have studied latin for many years etc.)
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Postby bellum paxque » Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:39 pm

Ioannes:

Do you have some specific evidence for making this claim? I don't mean to be argumentative, but I am curious about why native speakers of English would be more prone to mispronounce Latin words than other Romance languages, for example. The first thought that occurred to me was that the orthographic similarity between many Latin and English words might prejudice English speakers toward their own pronunciation. In fact, I have noticed myself hesitating with words like "cupiditas." In English, the first syllable, of course, includes an audible "y" between the "c" and the "u." Hence, "cyupiditas." As far as I understand, however, Latin pronunciation does not demand such an insertion.

However, since the Romance languages will also present many situations in which derivative words may suggest a native pronunciation in place of an authentic one, I do not understand the allegation. Are there other factors that I have failed to consider?

Thanks for your elucidation,

David
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Postby adz000 » Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:39 pm

The system of pure vowels in most Romance languages is much closer to Latin than English dipthongised vowels, for one.

Secondly, English borrowings from Latin are more confused, since much of it came via Norman, which imposes a different set of phonological expectations on anyone coming to Latin, but there are many words that came to English by a different route. For the most part you can't talk about Romance "borrowings" from Latin, since most words are reflexes, or direct descendants from the Latin. This means that at the very least phonological changes have been applied more consistently throughout.

But most of the above you can chalk up to foreign "accent". What is unforgivable, in my opinion, is the neglect of quantity that is endemic to speakers of English, whether due to the influence of the mother tongue or plain bad teaching. And I don't mean pronouncing all long and short vowels for different lengths of time, though that would be something great; what I mean is observing the length of the penult and placing the stress accent accordingly. There are many many common mistakes due to English interference, hujusmodi sunt:

umbilīcus (cf. Eng. umbílical)
ignórat (cf. Eng. ignorance)
prógredi (cf. Eng. progression)
formīdo (cf. Eng. formidable)
figūrat (&c.)
praefigūrat
íngredi
virīlis
decōris (from decor, not decus)
persevēro
irrīto, āre (vs. irrĭto, āre = make void, invalidate and irrĭtus)

Others I often hear might be better ascribed to laziness. A speaker of a Romance language will have to say whether or not these are common in his/her language. For all I know, a worse situation for false quantity may prevail in continental Europe.

nolīte
circúmdăre
velīmus
dífferunt
ábdĭtus
polītus
súbjacet
indigēre
cóntero
supérerat
displicēret
fácinus, facínoris
mulíebris
intérea

I do know that a common Italian error is to pronounce the diminutive filíolo AS the Italian filiólo. The Latin rule is "vocalis ante vocalem corripitur."

I consider these errors of accentuation to be far more grave than systematically slurring your vowels, because the accentuation provides vital metrical information.
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Postby Ioannes » Sun Jun 26, 2005 5:49 pm

bellum paxque wrote:Ioannes:

Do you have some specific evidence for making this claim? I don't mean to be argumentative, but I am curious about why native speakers of English would be more prone to mispronounce Latin words than other Romance languages, for example. The first thought that occurred to me was that the orthographic similarity between many Latin and English words might prejudice English speakers toward their own pronunciation. In fact, I have noticed myself hesitating with words like "cupiditas." In English, the first syllable, of course, includes an audible "y" between the "c" and the "u." Hence, "cyupiditas." As far as I understand, however, Latin pronunciation does not demand such an insertion.

However, since the Romance languages will also present many situations in which derivative words may suggest a native pronunciation in place of an authentic one, I do not understand the allegation. Are there other factors that I have failed to consider?

Thanks for your elucidation,

David


It was partly a joke, partly true; although, as much I hate to generalize, native speakers of English often tend to use their "native" vowels (e.g. singing a and e) in whatever foreign language they are picking up, such as Latin. On the other hand, I am not saying that other nationalities pronounce foreign languages flawless, because they don't! Nihilo setius, I am just pointing out them as being perhaps the worse. (e.g. ever heard the reading on the Cambridge Latin site?)
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Postby Cyborg » Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:35 pm

adz000 wrote:Others I often hear might be better ascribed to laziness. A speaker of a Romance language will have to say whether or not these are common in his/her language. For all I know, a worse situation for false quantity may prevail in continental Europe.

Well, I don't know if that's what you mean - I'm just trying to help - but...:

In Portuguese we have these two phenomenons called "systole" and "diastole", that turns an original long vowel in a short one, and a short in a long one, respectively.

Examples of systole are (long to short):
Latin word -> Portuguese version used
eramus -> Éramos
amabamus -> amÁvamos
legeramus -> lÊramos

Examples of diastole are (short to long):
mulier -> mulhEr (pronounced like "mulier" but the accent falls on "E")
facere -> fazEr
cogito -> cogIto
enumero -> enumEro
pastor -> pastOr
gladiator -> gladiadOr
ambulo -> ambUlo

But if you're only talking about the mistakes people make when learning Latin and saying the Latin words, then I have not a clue, for I do not have acquaintances currently learning Latin.
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