help with a tiny phrase

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Cyborg
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help with a tiny phrase

Post by Cyborg »

paucis diebus post orbilius a discipulis mortem claudiae, uxoris titi ac matris sexti, audit.
I can understand the "uxoris titi ac matris sexti", I know that it is "uxoris" and "matris" and not "uxor" and "mater" because it's explaining "claudiae" and therefore must be in the same case as "claudiae", which is genitive.

But I cannot understand "paucis diebus post orbilius a discipulis mortem, ..., audit."
This is what I have got so far: "for little days after orbilius for students, ..., hears death of claudia".

Could someone help me?

amans
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Post by amans »

Salue Cyborg,

Sure. You are actually very, very close!

-- if you make Orbilius the subject of audit and mortem the direct object of the verb you have...

-- then connect that with a discipulis - the a is just a variant of ab...

-- finally, consider paucis diebus post -- I think what may have confused you is the post. it is not a preposition here, but an adverb! translate it as later, and think you'll get the point

:D

Don't hesitate to ask if this is unclear.

Cyborg
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thanks

Post by Cyborg »

salue, amans,

You're so kind. thanks to your help, I've got here, thinking I have it right now:

Orbilius hears (about the) death of Claudia, Titus' wife and Sextus' mother, from students after a few days.

Is that it? That "after a few days" doesn't seem right. after a few days from when?

Yes, the "post" really confused me, and still does. How would you re-order the sentence so that "post" doesn't look like a preposition? I'd love to see that. I'd never think that "paucis diebus post" could be translated ipsis uerbis as "few days later". It's so weird! :)

Vale

amans
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Post by amans »

salue Cyborg

You're welcome! And yes, you've got it right on the spot :)

I certainly do understand your confusion. There are really a lot of words which can be used in so many different ways, take quod for example... or ut even. One has to rely on the context.

The best way to find out whether post is a preposition or not would be to look for something in the accusative. post the preposition wants that and nothing else... But the only accusative you have here is mortem and it is not so close to post. So one has to consider other possibilities. Here's what Lewis and Short say:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/pt ... 3D%2337195

As you can see: "adv. and prep." You may also want to check out some of the examples given.

So I hope this is correct in Latin: primum legi. post intellexi. -- At first I read. Then I understood :)

Cyborg
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Post by Cyborg »

amans wrote:You're welcome! And yes, you've got it right on the spot :)
Is this more correct? :
Orbilius hears (about the) death of Claudia, Titus' wife and Sextus' mother, from students a few days later.

Why is "paucis diebus" ablative? Is that ablative degree of difference?

amans
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Post by amans »

Yes, I think so. I call it an ablative of measure or ablativus mensurae in Latin :) It is used when comparing and expresses by how much something is different from something else. It is used...

With comparatives, e.g. haec arbor tribus pedibus altior est - this tree is three foot taller.

You'll often see this kind of ablative of adjectives expressing quantity, e.g multus or paulus:

hic liber multo melior est - this book is a lot better

and of nihil, is, hic and qui.

Another use of this ablative is the one we have in the sentence we are talking about. Here there is an adverb with a 'comparative' sense, post. As you said, later than what? The context must tell. But the ablative tells us the measure, a few days.

Along with post you have ante, postea, infra, supra, citra, ultra, aliter which are used with this ablative.

I hope this helps.

The first translation was fine, but, yes, the other translation is a little closer to the latin, as you use an English adverb, later, and not a preposition, after. For as we found out: post is an adverb here.

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benissimus
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Post by benissimus »

If it helps alleviate confusion, post the adverb can be translated "afterwards". There is also nothing wrong with saying "a few days after, ..." which is slightly more literal than "after a few days..."
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae

Cyborg
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Post by Cyborg »

Thanks for the imense help and the examples, amans. You're truly "amans linguam latinam atque studiosos eius". :)
amans wrote:hic liber multo melior est - this book is a lot bette
But isn't "multo", sic, already an adverb?
I thought I'd find more "ualde" than "multo" as an adverb (hic liber ualde melior est).
benissimus wrote:If it helps alleviate confusion, post the adverb can be translated "afterwards". There is also nothing wrong with saying "a few days after, ..." which is slightly more literal than "after a few days..."
Yes, it helps. :)
No, there's certainly nothing wrong with it, that's not what I said. I said I never thought "post" could be so literally translated as "afterwards". That's probably because I did not know it could be an adverb.

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benissimus
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Post by benissimus »

Also, whether I am correct I do not know, I always considered the ablative in these sorts of phrases to be an ablative of time.

i.e. in a few days, afterwards, ...

post with ablative of degree may be valid (or it may be an English bias based on comparative "after"). In many cases situations can be described in more than one way of course, exposing the artificiality of grammar :)
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae

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