temporal clauses help

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littlewoy
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temporal clauses help

Post by littlewoy »

some of these were pretty grim:

1. You ceased to rule the Athenians, O Spartans, before Socrates died.
Athenienses regere desivistis, Spartani, priusquam Socrates mortuus est.

I think this one's ok.

2. Let Cicero enjoy his power, as long as he spares the innocent.
Cicero potestate sua fruatur dum innocentibus parcat.

Is using the subj for the first bit ok? I've put parco in the subj as well for some reason, can't remember why. dum is mad.

3. Before we kill the king's daughters, we shall reveal the very cunning plans.
antequam filias regorum interfacimus, consilia callidissima retegemus.

think this one's ok.

4. Theseus insulted his son on the grounds that he had been bad, before he found out that he had been good.
Theseus filium...., priusquam comperit eum bonum fuisse.

i've no idea how to do "on the grounds that", i can't find it anywhere. I think the second bit is ok tho.

5. The king delayed on the borders until the soldiers were so angry that they barely obeyed him.
rex in finibus moratus est donec milites tam irati erant ut vix ei parerent.

think this one's ok.

6. It was scarcely the third hour when the young men set out from Rome to hunt.
erat vix hora tertia cum iuvenes Roma profecti sunt ut venarentur.

not sure about the beginning to this one at all.

7. Caesar had it in mind to deter the enemy from approaching until his own cavalry arrived.
Caesar in animo habuerat hostes accedendo?? deterrere dum equites sui advenerunt.

not sure whether to use a gerund here or not. should there be some crazy gerundival attraction aswell??

8. When Clodia hands over the gold to Caelius, the slave-girl will run swiftly to senate-house.
cum Clodia aurum Caelio tradiderit, ancilla ad curiam celeriter curret.

think this one's ok.

9. Pompeius is putting Balbus in command of building the walls while the consuls watch.
Pompeius Balbum in imperio ponit aedificandi muros dum consules spectamus.

not sure about the gerund here either, i'm sure to put in command is wrong aswell.

10. It is said that Scipio wept after the Romans destroyed Carthage.
dixit Scipionem lacrimare postquam Romani Carthaginem deleverant.

not sure how to do "it is said".

thanks guys.

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benissimus
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Re: temporal clauses help

Post by benissimus »

littlewoy wrote:1. You ceased to rule the Athenians, O Spartans, before Socrates died.
Athenienses regere desivistis, Spartani, priusquam Socrates mortuus est.

I think this one's ok.
A more common word for "Spartan" is Lacedaemonius, -ii.
2. Let Cicero enjoy his power, as long as he spares the innocent.
Cicero potestate sua fruatur dum innocentibus parcat.

Is using the subj for the first bit ok? I've put parco in the subj as well for some reason, can't remember why. dum is mad.
You almost need the subjunctive in the first part, to express "let him enjoy". dum often takes a subjunctive construction when it means "provided that, as long as," etc; so parcat is also good.
3. Before we kill the king's daughters, we shall reveal the very cunning plans.
antequam filias regorum interfacimus, consilia callidissima retegemus.

think this one's ok.
"king's" calls for a genitive singular: regis. regorum is not a word (perhaps you were influenced by genitive plural regum). The 'a' in facio shortens to and 'i' in compounds: inter-facimus -> interficimus.
4. Theseus insulted his son on the grounds that he had been bad, before he found out that he had been good.
Theseus filium...., priusquam comperit eum bonum fuisse.

i've no idea how to do "on the grounds that", i can't find it anywhere. I think the second bit is ok tho.
"on the grounds that" is just a roundabout way of saying "because". You may wish to use subjunctive for the verb following that, since it is a statement that is contrary to fact (as detailed in the latter part of the sentence).

comperio is not Classical usage. A more appropriate word might be agnosco or recognosco.
5. The king delayed on the borders until the soldiers were so angry that they barely obeyed him.
rex in finibus moratus est donec milites tam irati erant ut vix ei parerent.

think this one's ok.
I think so too.
6. It was scarcely the third hour when the young men set out from Rome to hunt.
erat vix hora tertia cum iuvenes Roma profecti sunt ut venarentur.

not sure about the beginning to this one at all.
I'm not quite sure either. I would have used a simple ablative of time, vix hora tertia "hardly at the third hour".
7. Caesar had it in mind to deter the enemy from approaching until his own cavalry arrived.
Caesar in animo habuerat hostes accedendo?? deterrere dum equites sui advenerunt.

not sure whether to use a gerund here or not. should there be some crazy gerundival attraction aswell??
The gerund looks all right to me. If you wanted to, you could turn it into a present participle, e.g. hostes accedentes deterrere, which would carry roughly the same meaning.

dum rarely ever takes the perfect when it carries the meaning "until".
8. When Clodia hands over the gold to Caelius, the slave-girl will run swiftly to senate-house.
cum Clodia aurum Caelio tradiderit, ancilla ad curiam celeriter curret.

think this one's ok.
I think so.
9. Pompeius is putting Balbus in command of building the walls while the consuls watch.
Pompeius Balbum in imperio ponit aedificandi muros dum consules spectamus.

not sure about the gerund here either, i'm sure to put in command is wrong aswell.
praecipio, -ere is a handy word that means "to put in charge". If you choose to do this you will have to rephrase the sentence, since obviously you cannot have a genitive ("of buildings the walls") modifying the verb.

you have aedificandi, a gerund, taking muros as a direct object; this is usually to be avoided. Translate as though it were "(put into command) of the walls to be built".

Unless you are a consul, spectamus should not be in the 1st person. "while the consuls watch" would be a nice time to flash your skill with an ablative absolute.
10. It is said that Scipio wept after the Romans destroyed Carthage.
dixit Scipionem lacrimare postquam Romani Carthaginem deleverant.

not sure how to do "it is said".
postquam usually would take a historical present, perfect, or imperfect, though it rarely goes with pluperfect.

dixit means "he said". You can handle this phrasing in several ways, mainly Scipio dicitur lacrimare... "Scipio is said to weep...", or more literally with an impersonal, Dicitur Scipionem lacrimare... "It is said that Scipio weeps". You should be able to see from these examples that your infinitive is in the wrong tense to express past action ("wept").



You are doing well as ever. You seem to have a natural talent for the language ;)
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae

littlewoy
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Post by littlewoy »

thanks benissimus. It's always the little things - regorum and spectamus were just dumb.

At the moment i'm finding the english>latin i'm doing a lot easier than the Virgil. I think it's because translating into latin is logical, as long as you follow the rules it's ok. Virgil/Catullus etc. liked the break the rules tho - damn poetic license.

Here's what i've got for no.4 now:

Theseus filio maledixit quia malo fuisset, priusquam recognovit eum bonum fuisse.

I think no.7 should be a gerund. Should gerundival attraction feature here at all?? Would "...donec equites sui advenerunt" be ok? I feel like avoiding dum :?

i looked for a verb meaning "to put in charge" but couldnt find anything. my dictionary doesnt have praecipio as meaning that?? maybe it's too small.

I'll go for "dicitur scipionem lacrimavisse..." in 10. For some reason i put "it is said" in the past tense in my brain.

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benissimus
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Post by benissimus »

littlewoy wrote:thanks benissimus. It's always the little things - regorum and spectamus were just dumb.

At the moment i'm finding the english>latin i'm doing a lot easier than the Virgil. I think it's because translating into latin is logical, as long as you follow the rules it's ok. Virgil/Catullus etc. liked the break the rules tho - damn poetic license.
I agree with you there. However, many people do not take the time to memorize all the inflections of nouns and verbs, which puts them into the disadvantage of having to assume meanings. Obviously, they cannot then generate accurate Latin from English :(

I think no.7 should be a gerund. Should gerundival attraction feature here at all?? Would "...donec equites sui advenerunt" be ok? I feel like avoiding dum :?
As I said, the gerund is acceptable here. Gerunds only attract to the nouns if the noun would be the gerund's direct object, which is not the case here. I believe donec equites sui advenerunt is correct.
i looked for a verb meaning "to put in charge" but couldnt find anything. my dictionary doesnt have praecipio as meaning that?? maybe it's too small.
Excuse me, I meant to say praeficio :oops:
I'll go for "dicitur scipionem lacrimavisse..." in 10. For some reason i put "it is said" in the past tense in my brain.
That works. It could also have been passive past tense, which is due to an ambiguity in the English passive.
Last edited by benissimus on Sat Feb 05, 2005 12:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae

Turpissimus
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Post by Turpissimus »

Theseus filio maledixit quia malo fuisset, priusquam recognovit eum bonum fuisse.
No need for the dative case. Just use the nominative. (in the reason clause I mean - no malo)
i looked for a verb meaning "to put in charge" but couldnt find anything. my dictionary doesnt have praecipio as meaning that?? maybe it's too small.
Perhaps he meant praeficio. Is this a rare example of Benissimus making a mistake? Praecipio means to admonish doesn't it. I shall enjoy this moment of superiority. I shall not see its like very soon.
I think no.7 should be a gerund. Should gerundival attraction feature here at all?? Would "...donec equites sui advenerunt" be ok? I feel like avoiding dum Confused
Here's what I have:
Caesar had it in mind to deter the enemy from approaching until his own cavalry arrived.
Caesar in animo habebat hostes deterrere quominus accedant donec suus equitatus advenerunt.

EDIT: Blast! sic transit gloria mundi

littlewoy
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Post by littlewoy »

thanks chaps.

here's what i'm going with for no. 9 now:

Pompeius Balbum praeficit murorum aedificandorum dum consules spectant.

is that ok? not sure about the gerundive.

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Post by Turpissimus »

Pompeius is putting Balbus in command of building the walls while the consuls watch.
Littlewoy wrote:Pompeius Balbum praeficit murorum aedificandorum dum consules spectant.
When you want to express a purpose using a gerundive you use ad together with the accusative:

Caesar duas legiones ad tumulum capiendum misit

In charge of is an English idiom, and ought not to be repeated in Latin.

I see you noticed that dum in the sense of while, during the time that always takes the present.

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Post by benissimus »

You can also use the construction praeficio + acc. (person put in charge) + dat. (thing person is put in charge of), e.g. praeficit Balbum muris aedificandis; literally "make _____ in front of _____". The dative is used for the same reason it is used to express the prepositional force in other compound words; e.g. inicit hastam "throw in the spear" but inicit corpori hastam "throw (in) the spear into the body" (=iacit hastam in corpus).
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