Vulgate Usage Question

Athanasius · Post by **Athanasius** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:49 am

Valete!

Anyone have any idea how autem is being used in the following verse from John 1 of the Vulgate, amabo te? I checked an online dictionary and found "on the other hand, but, however, etc" but it doesn't make sense per what I understand the verse to say

quotquot autem receperunt eum dedit eis potestatem filios Dei fieri his qui credunt in nomine eius

Semper fidelis,

Athanasius

Kasper · Post by **Kasper** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:32 am

quotquot autem receperunt eum dedit eis potestatem filios Dei fieri his qui credunt in nomine eius

however/on the other hand/but (take your pick), however many received him he gave to them the ability to become the sons of God, to these who believe in his name.

St Jerome had a thorough dislike of punctuation. On second thought... was punctuation invented when he wrote?

Deses · Post by **Deses** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:28 pm

Athanasius wrote:Valete!

Anyone have any idea how autem is being used in the following verse from John 1 of the Vulgate, amabo te? I checked an online dictionary and found "on the other hand, but, however, etc" but it doesn't make sense per what I understand the verse to say

quotquot autem receperunt eum dedit eis potestatem filios Dei fieri his qui credunt in nomine eius

Semper fidelis,

Athanasius

The trick is that English does not have a word corresponding to autem. The Greek text has "de" and you will probably find many instances of this correlation. I'd just try to develop a sense of what this word means using the suggested options when you actually have to translate it.

Ulpianus · Post by **Ulpianus** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:36 pm

As others have pointed out, autem is a connective implying contrast. In this case it makes sense in the context of the previous verse: "in propria venit et sui eum non receperunt." The people one might have expected to accept him did not accept him, but to those who did ...

I don't believe there was any punctuation to speak of when the Vulgate was compiled.

Athanasius · Post by **Athanasius** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:29 am

Gratia omnae! - for the help with autem - I believe Ulpianus has hit the nail on the head.

If you want to try a language that is punctuationally-challenged, try Arabic. They Arabs are still learning how to use it. Some older texts I read have none at all...rather they use specific words as a sort of punctuation.

Semper fidelis,

Athanasius

"Pauci viri sapientiae student." - Cicero (as quoted in Wheelock's 6th ed.

Al Akfar · Post by **Al Akfar** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 8:29 am

Ahhh, Arabic. Truly a language amongst languages. Even learning to count is a nightmare.

Athanasius · Post by **Athanasius** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:20 pm

Al-Akfar, et Arabia dices tu?

Salve,

Athanasius

cweb255 · Post by **cweb255** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:44 pm

ana atekelam arabiya? (Etiam arabicam dicesne?)

annis · Post by **annis** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:22 am

cweb255 wrote:ana atekelam arabiya?

anta tatakallam. walakin huwa yatakallam?

Counting's not that hard. You just have to remember the freaky gender marker switcheroo. Hebrew does this, too.

Episcopus · Post by **Episcopus** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:34 pm

annis wrote:
cweb255 wrote:ana atekelam arabiya?
anta tatakallam. walakin huwa yatakallam?

haha annis another language learned is it! And indeed a monster! I would say well done but that imply that I have the authority to do so.

The Vulgate must be for simpletons, it's so badly written that I could make no sense at all out of that passage apart from however many however. Seriously it does not look like latin but if latin that of a wealthy english prose composition choirboy student who in fact has no clue.

Athanasius · Post by **Athanasius** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:47 pm

heenama asma' al-arabiyya wa nihna fi moqi' al-internet al-mutakhassissa lil-lugha al-laateeniyya, ana ufakkir 'an ghazu al-muslimeen fi istanbul qabla thamaniya qurun.

In fact, I'm quite interested in studying more about the fall of Byzantium in the face of the Islamic invasion....one of my rainy day projects.

BTW, did I fail to ask Al-Akfar if he spoke Arabic? I wrote:

Et Arabia dices tu? Should it have been written some other way? I saw that CWEB255 wrote:

"Etiam arabicam dicesne?"

If I made a mistake, please explain so I can learn.

cweb255 · Post by **cweb255** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 9:47 pm

Yah, I don't know Arabic, but the way I pronounced it is always understood by the Arabic-speakers here. Besides, there's no one way to write Arabic in English...

Well yes, Arabia is either nominative singular or ablative singular, and the word means ARABIA. Arabica lingua is the Arabic language and it should be in accusative. Also, etiam is preferred to et with the first one meaning only also and the latter having the definition of "and" as the primary definition and "also" as a secondary type. Then "dices tu" is repetitive. Cut off the "tu" since the es already implies that and add the enclitic "ne" which is in the normal way to ask questions without interrogatives.

Athanasius · Post by **Athanasius** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:23 am

Thanks for the corrections to my grammar. I appreciate it.

As for the Arabic I wrote earlier, it reads "when I 'hear' Arabic at this site devoted to the Latin language, I think of the Muslim invasion of Constantinople ~ 8 centuries ago."

You're right, there are no good ways to render Arabic in the English alphabet. Too many extra sounds and letters.

Semper fidelis,

Athanasius

"Fortuna adversa virum magnae sapientiae non terrent." - Horace (as quoted in Wheelock's 6th ed.)

Al Akfar · Post by **Al Akfar** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 10:40 am

Ana atakallamha.

It's a truly nutty language. I love it. I had a quick look at Hebrew, I intend to come back to it after Latin. There is more to numbers in arabic than just blasted polarity, I can't believe how awkward they managed to make it.

My username is a nickname awarded me by my old Arabic tutor. The Most Infidel. I'm quite proud of it.

Al Akfar · Post by **Al Akfar** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 10:45 am

Though speaking of puncuation, my understanding is that Persian is much much worse, though the rest of the language is somewhat easier than Arabic.

Athanasius · Post by **Athanasius** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 12:37 pm

If you want to learn Hebrew, you've made the most important step by learning Arabic grammar first. Hebrew will seem like child's play, particularly modern Hebrew. Ben Yehuda did a great job in simplifying (westernizing really) a language with basically an Arabic grammar system.

I recommend that you study modern Hebrew first and then approach biblical Hebrew. It'll make more sense. But with your Arabic background, depending on how much you know, you can do either one.

After Hebrew, you should take up Aramaic. Aramaic, I have found, is to Hebrew and Arabic what Dutch is to English and German.

Semper fidelis,

Athanasius

"et circa horam nonam clamavit Iesus voce magna dicens Heli Heli lema sabacthani hoc est Deus meus Deus meus ut quid dereliquisti me" - Matthew 27:45

annis · Post by **annis** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 3:54 pm

Al Akfar wrote:Though speaking of puncuation, my understanding is that Persian is much much worse, though the rest of the language is somewhat easier than Arabic.

A lot easier than Arabic.

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Vulgate Usage Question

Vulgate Usage Question

Re: Vulgate Usage Question

AUTEM in the Vulgate

Vulgate to Arabic

Arabic in a Latin forum...hmmm

Thanks for the help - shukran

A thought on Semitic languages