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Paradigm shift

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Paradigm shift

Postby bingley » Tue Jul 22, 2003 5:38 am

When I was at school, declensions all went <br />Nominative<br />Vocative<br />Accusative<br />Genitive<br />Dative<br />Ablative (for Latin)<br /><br />but now they've been changed to:<br />Nominative<br />Genitive<br />Dative<br />Accusative<br />(Ablative)<br />Vocative<br /><br />Why? It's very confusing.
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Re:Paradigm shift

Postby Carola » Tue Jul 22, 2003 6:00 am

Well, we are still learning the "old" order of:<br />Nominative<br />Vocative<br />Accusative<br />Genitive<br />Dative<br />Ablative <br /> in our Latin. I think it depends on where your textbooks come from - would I be wrong in thinking the genitive 2nd way is from some US texbooks and the Voc. 2nd is from English textbooks? It's just one of those things, like spelling "cheque" or "check" that we have to learn to live with. I find that having to watch out for these differences makes me remember the endings a lot better!
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Re:Paradigm shift

Postby Emma_85 » Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:26 am

i've alway learned latin like this:<br /><br />Nominative<br />Genitive<br />Dative<br />Accusative<br />Ablative<br />(Vocative)<br /><br />i didn't know there was an old way to learn latin.<br /><br />but i think the new way makes more sense, because of course you need to have the nominative first, and gen. in 2. place makes sense, as you can tell what declination it is if you know the gen.<br />so in the vocabulary we always had to learn the nom. and gen. of a word.<br />don't know about the next two, but maybe they wanted to seperate the dative and the ablative, some beginners might have been confused?<br />but the ablative has so many functions and is so strange :P that it makes sense at the end.<br /><br />we totally left out the vocative, as our teacher said there's no point in learning it, we'll recognise it when we come across it (which is very true). in the grammar books it was always right at the end, because they knew that most teachers just leave it out, probably.
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Re:Paradigm shift

Postby bingley » Tue Jul 22, 2003 12:52 pm

I think as Carola says it must be a geographic thing, the US being different from everyone else.<br /><br />Ablative at the end makes sense, because it's there in Latin but not in Greek.<br /><br />Having the vocative second makes sense (to me) because it gives a nice rhythm to neuters, especially second declension.<br /><br />Just try chanting bellum bellum bellum belli bello bello to yourself a few times and you'll see what I mean.<br /><br />
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Re:Paradigm shift

Postby Milito » Tue Jul 22, 2003 1:39 pm

I think it depends on the book you first use, too. Wheelock uses the<br /><br />Nominative<br />Genitive<br />Dative<br />Accusative<br />Ablative<br />(Vocative) <br /><br />approach, which I taught myself to remember according to the line "No Good Dromadary Accepts Abuse (Voluntarily)". <br /><br />Moreland and Fleischer uses the same approach, but another book I ran into recently (Bennett?) uses a different order, which I found very disconcerting......<br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:Paradigm shift

Postby mariek » Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:49 pm

[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=284;start=0#1786 date=1058881146]<br />... approach, which I taught myself to remember according to the line "No Good Dromadary Accepts Abuse (Voluntarily)".[/quote]<br /><br />That's rather clever. :)<br /><br />What I want to know is how you all learn the tables. Do you do Sing & Plur of NOM, then Sing & Plur of GEN, etc? Or do you go down the line of all Sing (NOM, GEN, ... , VOC), and then go through all the Plur (NOM, GEN, ..., VOC)?<br /><br />So do you do this :<br /><br /> domina, dominae, dominae, dominärum, dominae, dominïs, dominam, dominäs, dominä, dominïs<br /><br />Or do you do this :<br /><br /> domina, dominae, dominae, dominam, dominä, dominae, dominärum, dominïs, dominäs, dominïs<br /><br />
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Re:Paradigm shift

Postby Emma_85 » Tue Jul 22, 2003 9:40 pm

the second way. i've always learned all the sing. and then all the pl. forms. same for greek. <br />again it depends which book you use, i suppose, and which teachers you had (i my case no difference, as my teachers where involved in the writing of the books.)<br /><br />declensions are terrible in latin, just glad i haven't had to learn any latin declension tables in the last 4 years (but i must revise my latin, i must revise my latin, i must... lol, how many times do i have to say that to make myself do it? :-P ).<br />
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Re:Paradigm shift

Postby benissimus » Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:45 pm

I follow the second method as well. I find that the singulars are where you really must focus, because the plurals are repetitive to some degree in all declensions (and more so in 3rd-5th).
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Re:Paradigm shift

Postby Episcopus » Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:48 pm

N<br />G<br />D<br />Acc.<br />Abl.<br />(Voc.)<br />(Loc.)<br /><br />*bangs hand on table <br />/cough BLD
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Re:Paradigm shift

Postby benissimus » Tue Jul 22, 2003 11:43 pm

Maybe you should request your rank be changed to BLD Zealot :P
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Re:Paradigm shift

Postby bingley » Wed Jul 23, 2003 12:27 am

>:(<br />Domina, domina, dominam, dominae, dominae, domina.<br />Dominae, dominas, dominarum, dominis, dominis
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Re:Paradigm shift

Postby mariek » Wed Jul 23, 2003 1:16 am

[quote author=bingley link=board=3;threadid=284;start=0#1842 date=1058920051]<br /> >:(<br />Domina, domina, dominam, dominae, dominae, domina.<br />Dominae, dominas, dominarum, dominis, dominis<br />[/quote]<br />Putö multitudine superäris! ;D<br />(I think you're outnumbered!) ??? <br />
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Re:Paradigm shift

Postby ingrid70 » Wed Jul 23, 2003 12:49 pm

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=284;start=0#1844 date=1058923001]<br />[quote author=bingley link=board=3;threadid=284;start=0#1842 date=1058920051]<br /> >:(<br />Domina, domina, dominam, dominae, dominae, domina.<br />Dominae, dominas, dominarum, dominis, dominis<br />[/quote]<br />Putö multitudine superäris! ;D<br />(I think you're outnumbered!) ??? <br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />Puto est Britannicus :).<br /><br />Ingrid (quae est Batava)<br /><br />Modified: eheu, sum femina (last time I checked)
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Re:Paradigm shift

Postby bingley » Wed Jul 23, 2003 3:29 pm

Britannicus sum sed domus mea in urbe Batavia (quae nunc Jakarta appellatur) est.
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Re:Paradigm shift

Postby Episcopus » Wed Jul 23, 2003 10:23 pm

[quote author=bingley link=board=3;threadid=284;start=0#1866 date=1058974198]<br />Britannicus sum sed domus mea in urbe Batavia (quae nunc Jakarta appellatur) est.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />mater mea dicit me esse Britannicus sed venio ex Armenia patria antiqua. Britanniam non amo quia populi sunt stupidi et episcopi sui praedam feminarum non amant :o<br /><br /><br />
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