Fear clauses

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Dingbats
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Fear clauses

Post by Dingbats »

I searched the web for examples of fear clauses, and I found this:
Caesar veretur ut senatus se laudet.
Does that really mean "Caesar fears that the senate might not praise him"? It's not that it's ut that i used, I know that ut and ne are inverted in fear clauses.
It's that se is used that bothers me. Wouldn't se point back at senatus, since it is the last subject noun before se?
Is this weird thing used in other kinds of clauses too?

Episcopus
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Post by Episcopus »

Often se is used to refer back to the subject of the main clause instead of that of the ne/ut however this is common. For example using Caesar as an educational tool not that I like him, They went thither that Caesar might sacrifice them, se ut Caesar immolaret illuc iere. The se does not refer to Caesar, but to the subject of 'iere'. Often it's a case of sense. Which if you don't have it can be funny. Although the se might technically be seen to also be able to refer to Caesar, usually "ipsum" here would be used to point back to Caesar. Such use of ipse is worthy of notice :)

Dingbats
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Post by Dingbats »

OK, so using eum in my example wouldn't be incorrect?

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ptran
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Post by ptran »

I don't know if it's necessarily correct, either. The distinction above is between the direct and indirect reflexive- most grammars should have a blurb on this, and one sees it all the time in prose. I would use 'se' in your example above because 'eum' would read like Caesar was afraid that senate feared him (someone else althogether).

Dingbats
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Post by Dingbats »

OK. Is this something that is used in other clauses than fear clauses too?

Episcopus
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Post by Episcopus »

Yes of course. It's often a question of making sense and instinct for latin with the indirect reflexive referring to the subject of the main clause (iere) not of the subordinate substantive clause (Caesar) as in my example. Eum is as you said used for some one else, i.e. neither of the two subjects, se is used to refer to the subject of the main clause (iere = they) and ipsum here would be used to refer to Caesar. Technically as I said they could be read in different ways but this would not appear natural.

Dingbats
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Post by Dingbats »

OK. Thanks for all your help! :)

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