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"make every day count"

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"make every day count"

Postby benissimus » Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:33 pm

I am trying to find a way to translate this into Latin for someone else, but I am finding it difficult to find a satisfactory way of saying it. Obviously a word for "to count" is not going to carry the same meaning as in the English phrase, unless there is some very apt Latin word which I am unaware of. I had it in mind to use interest in the sense of "it matters", but because it is impersonal I cannot easily say what matters. I am open to suggestions...

As of now I am considering a rather tenuous fiat quisque dies ut tua intersit, but it still seems like it would be like trying to imply a subject into the impersonal spot.
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Postby whiteoctave » Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:57 pm

maximi quemque diem aestima

meaning 'regard every day as of the most importance'. aestimo with a genitive of worth is, of course, very common. there would be quite a strong argument for making diem feminine here, and quamque provides a nicer sound.
perhaps, however, Horace wins with his so painfully over-quoted carpe diem?

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Postby Episcopus » Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:59 pm

quemque per diem permulta perfac
in dies ne simpliciter feramini
nolite solum fodicare: ineatis etiam
diripite diem
ne sedeatis tantum domi horas pernumerans
ne expectetis dum fetus nascatur
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Postby Lucus Eques » Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:26 pm

I have more along the lines of the same. There really isn't a regular verb for "to matter" in Latin, it appears, which is unfortunate, because it bears the connotation we're seeking. Still, we can express it something like this:

Quemque diem gaudeatur.

"May that each day be enjoyed."

Or, we could make it a command:

Gaude quemque diem!

"Enjoy every day!"
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Postby whiteoctave » Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:32 pm

what is the subject in 'Quemque diem gaudeatur'?

Episcopus must have a new penchant for intensitive per-!

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Postby Lucus Eques » Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:04 am

what is the subject in 'Quemque diem gaudeatur'?


Woh! That was really blunderous of me; thank you for noting that, David. I haven't been getting much sleep lately; that must explain it.

It should have been,

Quisque dies gaudeatur.

Though now I'm thinking I prefer a different word order, if only for sonority:

Quisque gaudeatur dies!


Episcopus must have a new penchant for intensitive per-!


Per sure! :D
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Postby Episcopus » Fri Aug 13, 2004 2:36 pm

whiteoctave wrote:
Episcopus must have a new penchant for intensitive per-!



I was inspired by your dactyl!
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Postby whiteoctave » Fri Aug 13, 2004 4:16 pm

molossus surely.

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Re: "make every day count"

Postby Skylax » Sat Aug 14, 2004 6:19 pm

benissimus wrote: I had it in mind to use interest in the sense of "it matters", but because it is impersonal I cannot easily say what matters.


"it matters" : check the phrase aliquo numero esse.
It could be : fac dies singuli aliquo sint numero.

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Postby Lucus Eques » Sat Aug 14, 2004 11:56 pm

Hm ... those don't seem quite agreed in number, I think, Skylax.

"it matters" : check the phrase aliquo numero esse.
It could be : fac dies singuli aliquo sint numero.


"Fac" I doubt would be used in the same sense as the direct English translation. Rendering by the subjunctive, which you have in "sint," may be better.

If you mean "dies" in the singular, it ought to be sit instead of "sint" (in which case, using "fac," it would have to be diem in the accusative). Or if you intended "dies" to be plural, the phrase would have to be, Dies omnes sint numeris, or something strange like that, though numero properly is used adverbially to mean "exactly," "at the right time," "too quickly," "too soon," et cetera. Comment dit-on make every day count en français?
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Postby Lucus Eques » Sun Aug 15, 2004 6:23 am

whiteoctave wrote:maximi quemque diem aestima

meaning 'regard every day as of the most importance'. aestimo with a genitive of worth is, of course, very common. there would be quite a strong argument for making diem feminine here, and quamque provides a nicer sound.


"Quamque"? This has been bothering me for a few days (yes, Latin phrases do keep me up at night; I am that strange). Quam only occurs in the relative pronouns; quisque, descripive both of masculine and feminine, and its declined quemque would be the only possible inflexion in such a phrase as "maximi quemque diem aestima"; whether the gender of "diem" were masculine or feminine would be irrelevant.

Is "quamque" some exotic poetic usage? because logically it could only be used as a relative-pronoun-plus-enclitic meaning "and which."
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Postby benissimus » Sun Aug 15, 2004 7:23 am

Thanks for the help everyone! Everything I tried to say seemed too ugly to me. gratias vobis omnibus ago

Skylax wrote:"it matters" : check the phrase aliquo numero esse.
It could be : fac dies singuli aliquo sint numero.

I checked the aliquo numero esse phrase with Perseus, but I only saw examples of it being used with people. Are you certain it could be used of a date as well?

"Fac" I doubt would be used in the same sense as the direct English translation. Rendering by the subjunctive, which you have in "sint," may be better.

If you mean "dies" in the singular, it ought to be sit instead of "sint" (in which case, using "fac," it would have to be diem in the accusative). Or if you intended "dies" to be plural, the phrase would have to be, Dies omnes sint numeris, or something strange like that, though numero properly is used adverbially to mean "exactly," "at the right time," "too quickly," "too soon," et cetera.

He obviously intended it as a fac+result clause with the ut omitted or implied, not a mere jussive with sint. Something like "see that each day is of some repute (worth/value?)", as opposed to Dave's rendition of "value every day highly".

Is "quamque" some exotic poetic usage? because logically it could only be used as a relative-pronoun-plus-enclitic meaning "and which."

The forms of the relative adjectives are highly... unpredictable ;) There are many examples where you would expect an interrogative and get a relative form, and I am pretty sure quamque and other distinctly feminine forms are well attested. Just look at this, and you will see quamque (partem) in one of the first examples:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/pt ... 3D%2340249
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Postby Episcopus » Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:16 pm

Lucus Eques wrote:Hm ... those don't seem quite agreed in number, I think, Skylax.

"it matters" : check the phrase aliquo numero esse.
It could be : fac dies singuli aliquo sint numero.


"Fac" I doubt would be used in the same sense as the direct English translation. Rendering by the subjunctive, which you have in "sint," may be better.



I can't actually believe that you said this Lucus. Do not be so arrogant as to criticise Skylax when he is not only a supreme gladiator with the wooden sword of freedom but also when his Latin is perfect yet beyond you to the extent that you believe yourself to be right. As Steven said, it was not exactly ambiguous that it was meant as a clause of result. Fac ut is indeed used in the sense of 'make' with the subjunctive.
Go listen to some more opera, vaunt yourself of your many poorly learned languages, kid yourself. I really can not believe that you said that.

Whether this was said or not I was going to say that the contribution of Skylax rendered the message so very well; and, having never seen it before, it was still read by me (a pretty bad reader!) as in our idiom 'make every day count'. Why do you have any qualms with 'aliquo numero esse' - I will be using that as the lack of the verb 'to matter' annoys me also.
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Postby whiteoctave » Sun Aug 15, 2004 1:03 pm

ecule, the only instance i know of quemque standing for the regular feminine quamque is l.185 of Plautus' Pseudolus. I tend, as a rule of thumb, to shrink from exotica.


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Postby Lucus Eques » Sun Aug 15, 2004 2:58 pm

Wow, "quamque partem," look at that. Iuste. Thanks for answering my questions, guys; it's good to get these bad notions out of my head before they cause real problems.

I stand fully corrected.


... we hope. ;)


He obviously intended it as a fac+result clause with the ut omitted or implied, not a mere jussive with sint. Something like "see that each day is of some repute (worth/value?)", as opposed to Dave's rendition of "value every day highly".


That's neat; every grammar I've read so far made such wagnerian overtures about the relative concept of "that" not being ommitted. But logically there's a lot more to learn in the actual authors than in stuffy texts.

I can't actually believe that you said this Lucus. Do not be so arrogant as to criticise Skylax when he is not only a supreme gladiator with the wooden sword of freedom but also when his Latin is perfect yet beyond you to the extent that you believe yourself to be right.


Well, though my comments were not made out of arrogance, this is essentially right; he knows the rules better, and knows when he can bend and break them for greater fluidity. I'm suddenly reminded of my German host family correcting my English ...

As Steven said, it was not exactly ambiguous that it was meant as a clause of result. Fac ut is indeed used in the sense of 'make' with the subjunctive.
Go listen to some more opera, vaunt yourself of your many poorly learned languages, kid yourself. I really can not believe that you said that.


Nor can I you that. This is truly insulting. Episcopus, you know I would never make such an attack on someone at this forum, surely never over a bit of grammar. My suggestions were purely out of the spirit of friendship; never out of malice.

Skylax's suggestion, to me, seemed strange; I had never seen its ilk. But Benissimus has well corrected me, and I shall take the counsel to heart. Exactly how long Skylax has been here or how well he might know Latin or any other language never occurred to me; my suggestions were merely responsitory.

That you attack me and insult me, using information I had given you privately in order that I might assist you in your own problems, is in my eyes far worse a crime than my own actions in this thread, and feels like a deep, deep betrayal.

Et monsieur Skylax, je te prie votre pardon; je n'ai eu l'intention de faire insulte à vous. Clairement je peux voir comme vous avez raison, et moi, j'avais tort. Encore, excusez moi, et j'éspère nous pouvons rester naturellement les amis qui nous sommes été.
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Postby Skylax » Sun Aug 15, 2004 7:01 pm

Please, gentlemen, don't fight ! Allons, allons, Messieurs, ne nous emballons pas !

Lucus Eques wrote: Comment dit-on make every day count en français?


Je dirais Fais que chaque jour compte, because I thought it meant "see that each day is of some repute (worth/value?)", as benissimus said, but if Dave understands it as "value every day highly", he must understand English far better than me, so in this case it would be Pense à la valeur de chaque journée.

Now, I loved my idea, so how could it be translated ?

benissimus wrote:I checked the aliquo numero esse phrase with Perseus, but I only saw examples of it being used with people. Are you certain it could be used of a date as well?


So did I. You are right : it is inadequate, here. So we can use the phrase magni momenti esse or aliquid momenti habere : this time I believe Perseus will agree. So my following proposition will be :
Fac dies singuli magni sint momenti or Fac aliquid momenti habeant singuli dies

Regarding "value every day highly" : it could be Magni fac dies singulos

Waiting for the following round...
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Postby Episcopus » Sun Aug 15, 2004 7:30 pm

Toutefois, bien que personne ne l'ait ainsi utilisée cette phrase-la dont on se dispute pourquoi cela veut dire que Je n'ai pas le droit de l'ecrire d'une autre façon? Je dis cela parce qu'il y a evidemment peu de phrases que l'on peut trouver...
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Postby benissimus » Mon Aug 16, 2004 12:35 am

Skylax wrote:So did I. You are right : it is inadequate, here. So we can use the phrase magni momenti esse or aliquid momenti habere : this time I believe Perseus will agree. So my following proposition will be :
Fac dies singuli magni sint momenti or Fac aliquid momenti habeant singuli dies

I like the aliquid momenti phrase. I hope you don't mind if I use it. What do you think of singula dies instead?
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Postby Lucus Eques » Mon Aug 16, 2004 3:08 am

Skylax wrote:Je dirais Fais que chaque jour compte, because I thought it meant "see that each day is of some repute (worth/value?)", as benissimus said, but if Dave understands it as "value every day highly", he must understand English far better than me, so in this case it would be Pense à la valeur de chaque journée.


Ah, je vois, je vois; très bien.

So did I. You are right : it is inadequate, here. So we can use the phrase magni momenti esse or aliquid momenti habere : this time I believe Perseus will agree. So my following proposition will be :
Fac dies singuli magni sint momenti or Fac aliquid momenti habeant singuli dies


Ah! and now I see where I was in error, misinterpreting a partitive construction for a misalignment of number.
I am quite fond of all of those, including the original (now that I understand it); though, like Benissimus, I also feel partial to Fac aliquid momenti habeant singuli dies. Mire.

What do you think of singula dies instead?


Ooh neat, the feminine again. That's incredibly interesting; David, could you explain to me how a noun may change gender? Is it common, or only possible in fifth declension nouns? or merely poetic?

ecule, the only instance i know of quemque standing for the regular feminine quamque is l.185 of Plautus' Pseudolus. I tend, as a rule of thumb, to shrink from exotica.


Indeed, you've not given any proof to the contrary. I think I follow summaries of forms too closely, like this one. Latin is inherently a languaging of thinking outside the proverbial box; I shouldn't allow myself to be so limited thus.

ecule


That's the best nickname ever; I love it. It makes me feel a little like my favorite chess piece. :)

By the way — and I think you once informed me on this, Benissimus — is it that the ablative singular of third declension nouns may end in either -i or -e? Though -e appears to be a kind of formal standard, I see numerous examples with -i instead (including in this very thread).
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Postby benissimus » Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:36 am

Lucus Eques wrote:
What do you think of singula dies instead?


Ooh neat, the feminine again. That's incredibly interesting; David, could you explain to me how a noun may change gender? Is it common, or only possible in fifth declension nouns? or merely poetic?

Allen & Greenough explain this well in section 97 a:
Dies is sometimes feminine in the singular, especially in phrases indicating a fixed time, and regularly feminine when used of time in general: as, contituta die, on a set day; longa dies, a long time.


ecule


That's the best nickname ever; I love it. It makes me feel a little like my favorite chess piece. :)

Oh, I was wondering why he said that. Now I see it is obviously a diminutive.

By the way — and I think you once informed me on this, Benissimus — is it that the ablative singular of third declension nouns may end in either -i or -e? Though -e appears to be a kind of formal standard, I see numerous examples with -i instead (including in this very thread).

Usually the ablative -i is only found in I-stems and third declension nouns. In pure I-stems and most 3rd declension adjectives it is the regular ablative singular, in mixed I-stems it is usually optional or governed by popular usage. Other I-stem forms in ascending order of their commonness are the obsolete nominative plural -is, rare accusative singular -im, ablative singular -i, and accusative plural -is. The latter two are more common in I-stems than the endings -e and -es. Again, consult Allen & Greenough if you want to know more details about this. I can hardly fault you for not wanting to read a grammar book, it is an acquired taste ;)
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Postby Skylax » Mon Aug 16, 2004 9:09 am

benissimus wrote:
Lucus Eques wrote:
What do you think of singula dies instead?


Ooh neat, the feminine again. That's incredibly interesting; David, could you explain to me how a noun may change gender? Is it common, or only possible in fifth declension nouns? or merely poetic?

Allen & Greenough explain this well in section 97 a:
Dies is sometimes feminine in the singular, especially in phrases indicating a fixed time, and regularly feminine when used of time in general: as, contituta die, on a set day; longa dies, a long time.



Well, I disliked dies in the feminine here because of the meaning of "a set day, appointed time, term" (in French "une date", not "un jour"). On the other hand, singuli, ae, a is very rarely used in the singular.

Now see what Seneca wrote (Epistles, III, 26, 4) :
Non enim subito inpulsi ac prostrati sumus: carpimur, singuli dies aliquid subtrahunt
viribus."
French translation :
"car nous ne sommes pas terrassés, anéantis d'un seul coup; minés insensiblement, nous voyons nos forces décroitre chaque jour", so "(We don't become weak at once, but) every day takes something from our strength".

Here we have singuli dies as a subject in a slightly post-classical and slightly poetical Latin. I think it can be good.
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Postby Jeff Tirey » Mon Aug 16, 2004 2:41 pm

Episcopus wrote:I can't actually believe that you said this Lucus. Do not be so arrogant as to criticise Skylax when he is not only a supreme gladiator....


I can believe you said the above because your outbursts around here are sadly all to frequent.

Please be more constructive and try not to make things personal. It creates bad vibes around here that can easily be found in forums elsewhere.

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