Various problems on translating and Campania

[Michaelyus]

I am trying to translate:
Don't let us suffer from the dry heat and the long drought, but save us from them.

So far, I have:
Non facias doleamus propter aestem aridam et propter sitem diuturnam, sed nos reservas...

And I completely stumble. Any help is appreciated.

Also, can someone please proof-read this text:
O Vulcane, Vulcane, o fili Iuno, o Vulcane, Vulcane, o deus ignis. Feras nobis, feras nobis, nobis feras calorem, o deus claudus, nobis feram calorem. Nobis feram calorem, et tibi damus animi piscus, piscum adoleamus pro gratia tua.

Does anyone know what happened on 23-25 August AD79- apart from the Plinian explosion? I want to find out the happenings of the people; what people were doing on those fateful days. I know a little about Julius Polybius the wealthy political baker, Stephanus the fuller, Celadus the gladiator etc. from the program "Pompeii- The Last Day", on BBC1, but I've mostly forgotten it. Can anyone help me?

VOBIS GRATIAS AGO

[whiteoctave]

I am trying to translate:
Don't let us suffer from the dry heat and the long drought, but save us from them.

So far, I have:
Non facias doleamus propter aestem aridam et propter sitem diuturnam, sed nos reservas...

Using the present jussive subjunctive of facio to take a subjunctive is a rather forced (and surprising option). ne with the subjunctive is typically used of 1st and 3rd person prohibitions, rather than the 2nd person here. the much-loved noli will probably have to be invoked. doleo is quite a nice verb to employ. just for variance, i will go for adficio in the passive. propter does mean on account of, but with a verb such as doleo, a preposition such as ex seems (intuitively, so not necessarily correctly) morefitting. Hendiadys may be employed for the former of the two things, perhpas not for the latter. If not, a chiasmus could be created for the two using two pairs of nouns and adjectives, such as 'ex aestus siccitate diuturnitateque sitis', but i don't much like siccitas, so forming a tricolon will probably be more attractive. the 'from them' will definitely need to be expressed, for it is the crucial twist.

stuff in brackets is cleary superfluous.

noli pati (or ne sis passa), (precamur, dea?), nos aestu (,nos) arido (=a substantive) (nos, quod maius est,) site diuturna adfici, sed a quibus nos serva.

=noli pati nos aestu nos arido nos site diuturna adfici, dea, sed a quibus, precamur, nos serva.

there are a million variants, depending upon style etc. the above is rather high-flown, as i imagined it addressed to a goddess as a plead of sorts. it's unfortunate that there are two infinitives in it.

as regards this:

O Vulcane, Vulcane, o fili Iuno, o Vulcane, Vulcane, o deus ignis. Feras nobis, feras nobis, nobis feras calorem, o deus claudus, nobis feram calorem. Nobis feram calorem, et tibi damus animi piscus, piscum adoleamus pro gratia tua.

it's pretty crazy. did you write it? is Iuno meant to be in the genitive (Iunonis)? I like claudus! (though it should be with the vocative -e inflection). Is 'feram' 1st pers. or is it rather the adj. with the verb understood from earlier? what is piscus? adoleamus is presumably hortatory subjunctive. 'pro' means more 'in return for', 'in proportion to' rather than 'for' in the sense of 'because of'. is this what you intend?


~D

[Michaelyus]

Oh dear, I am in trouble this time!!!!

Yes- it should be o fili Iunionis

Claude---of course!

Feram????? No, that should definitely be feras.

Piscus????? That should be piscum (gen. pl. of fish- my 3rd declension is shaky)

Adoleamus... I intended to say "Let us *burn* fish for your sake".

And pro is meant to mean "becuase of".

And yes, I did write it.

[whiteoctave]

i like the bizarre thing - it has a rather charming rhythm, reminiscent of some medieval latin chants. 'adoleamus' was right for 'let's burn'.
gen. pl. of piscis would be piscium.
Iunonis*

your mistakes are mostly down to typing, so not to worry: Romanum est errare!

~D

[Timothy]

...Romanum est errare!

I like this!

I'll have to keep it in front of me as I start posting compositions, though.

- Tim

[Michaelyus]

Also, can anyone find an online copy of Pliny the Younger's letters to Tacitus in Latin please? I specifically want the letters book 6, letters 16 and 20.

VOBIS GRATIAS AGO

[whiteoctave]

letter 16:

C. PLINIUS TACITO SUO S.

(1) petis ut tibi avunculi mei exitum scribam, quo verius tradere posteris possis. Gratias ago; nam video morti eius si celebretur a te immortalem gloriam esse propositam. (2) Quamvis enim pulcherrimarum clade terrarum, ut populi ut urbes memorabili casu, quasi semper victurus occiderit, quamvis ipse plurima opera et mansura condiderit, multum tamen perpetuitati eius scriptorum tuorum aeternitas addet. (3) Equidem beatos puto, quibus deorum munere datum est aut facere scribenda aut scribere legenda, beatissimos vero quibus utrumque. Horum in numero avunculus meus et suis libris et tuis erit. Quo libentius suscipio, deposco etiam quod iniungis.

(4) Erat Miseni classemque imperio praesens regebat. Nonum Kal. Septembres hora fere septima mater mea indicat ei apparere nubem inusitata et magnitudine et specie. (5) Usus ille sole, mox frigida, gustaverat iacens studebatque; poscit soleas, ascendit locum ex quo maxime miraculum illud conspici poterat. Nubes - incertum procul intuentibus ex quo monte; Vesuvium fuisse postea cognitum est - oriebatur, cuius similitudinem et formam non alia magis arbor quam pinus expresserit. (6) Nam longissimo velut trunco elata in altum quibusdam ramis diffundebatur, credo quia recenti spiritu evecta, dein senescente eo destituta aut etiam pondere suo victa in latitudinem vanescebat, candida interdum, interdum sordida et maculosa prout terram cineremve sustulerat. (7) Magnum propiusque noscendum ut eruditissimo viro visum. Iubet liburnicam aptari; mihi si venire una vellem facit copiam; respondi studere me malle, et forte ipse quod scriberem dederat. (8) Egrediebatur domo; accipit codicillos Rectinae Tasci imminenti periculo exterritae - nam villa eius subiacebat, nec ulla nisi navibus fuga -: ut se tanto discrimini eriperet orabat. (9) Vertit ille consilium et quod studioso animo incohaverat obit maximo. Deducit quadriremes, ascendit ipse non Rectinae modo sed multis - erat enim frequens amoenitas orae - laturus auxilium. (10) Properat illuc unde alii fugiunt, rectumque cursum recta gubernacula in periculum tenet adeo solutus metu, ut omnes illius mali motus omnes figuras ut deprenderat oculis dictaret enotaretque.

(11) Iam navibus cinis incidebat, quo propius accederent, calidior et densior; iam pumices etiam nigrique et ambusti et fracti igne lapides; iam vadum subitum ruinaque montis litora obstantia. Cunctatus paulum an retro flecteret, mox gubernatori ut ita faceret monenti 'Fortes' inquit 'fortuna iuvat: Pomponianum pete.' (12) Stabiis erat diremptus sinu medio - nam sensim circumactis curvatisque litoribus mare infunditur -; ibi quamquam nondum periculo appropinquante, conspicuo tamen et cum cresceret proximo, sarcinas contulerat in naves, certus fugae si contrarius ventus resedisset. Quo tunc avunculus meus secundissimo invectus, complectitur trepidantem consolatur hortatur, utque timorem eius sua securitate leniret, deferri in balineum iubet; lotus accubat cenat, aut hilaris aut - quod aeque magnum - similis hilari. (13) Interim e Vesuvio monte pluribus locis latissimae flammae altaque incendia relucebant, quorum fulgor et claritas tenebris noctis excitabatur. Ille agrestium trepidatione ignes relictos desertasque villas per solitudinem ardere in remedium formidinis dictitabat. Tum se quieti dedit et quievit verissimo quidem somno; nam meatus animae, qui illi propter amplitudinem corporis gravior et sonantior erat, ab iis qui limini obversabantur audiebatur. (14) Sed area ex qua diaeta adibatur ita iam cinere mixtisque pumicibus oppleta surrexerat, ut si longior in cubiculo mora, exitus negaretur. Excitatus procedit, seque Pomponiano ceterisque qui pervigilaverant reddit. (15) In commune consultant, intra tecta subsistant an in aperto vagentur. Nam crebris vastisque tremoribus tecta nutabant, et quasi emota sedibus suis nunc huc nunc illuc abire aut referri videbantur. (16) Sub dio rursus quamquam levium exesorumque pumicum casus metuebatur, quod tamen periculorum collatio elegit; et apud illum quidem ratio rationem, apud alios timorem timor vicit. Cervicalia capitibus imposita linteis constringunt; id munimentum adversus incidentia fuit. (17) Iam dies alibi, illic nox omnibus noctibus nigrior densiorque; quam tamen faces multae variaque lumina solvebant. Placuit egredi in litus, et ex proximo adspicere, ecquid iam mare admitteret; quod adhuc vastum et adversum permanebat. (18) Ibi super abiectum linteum recubans semel atque iterum frigidam aquam poposcit hausitque. Deinde flammae flammarumque praenuntius odor sulpuris alios in fugam vertunt, excitant illum. (19) Innitens servolis duobus assurrexit et statim concidit, ut ego colligo, crassiore caligine spiritu obstructo, clausoque stomacho qui illi natura invalidus et angustus et frequenter aestuans erat. (20) Ubi dies redditus - is ab eo quem novissime viderat tertius -, corpus inventum integrum illaesum opertumque ut fuerat indutus: habitus corporis quiescenti quam defuncto similior.

(21) Interim Miseni ego et mater - sed nihil ad historiam, nec tu aliud quam de exitu eius scire voluisti. Finem ergo faciam. (22) Unum adiciam, omnia me quibus interfueram quaeque statim, cum maxime vera memorantur, audieram, persecutum. Tu potissima excerpes; aliud est enim epistulam aliud historiam, aliud amico aliud omnibus scribere. Vale.

letter 20:

C. PLINIUS TACITO SUO S.

(1) Ais te adductum litteris quas exigenti tibi de morte avunculi mei scripsi, cupere cognoscere, quos ego Miseni relictus - id enim ingressus abruperam - non solum metus verum etiam casus pertulerim.

'Quamquam animus meminisse horret, ...
incipiam.'

(2) Profecto avunculo ipse reliquum tempus studiis - ideo enim remanseram - impendi; mox balineum cena somnus inquietus et brevis. (3) Praecesserat per multos dies tremor terrae, minus formidolosus quia Campaniae solitus; illa vero nocte ita invaluit, ut non moveri omnia sed verti crederentur. (4) Irrupit cubiculum meum mater; surgebam invicem, si quiesceret excitaturus. Resedimus in area domus, quae mare a tectis modico spatio dividebat. (5) Dubito, constantiam vocare an imprudentiam debeam - agebam enim duodevicensimum annum -: posco librum Titi Livi, et quasi per otium lego atque etiam ut coeperam excerpo. Ecce amicus avunculi qui nuper ad eum ex Hispania venerat, ut me et matrem sedentes, me vero etiam legentem videt, illius patientiam securitatem meam corripit. Nihilo segnius ego intentus in librum.

(6) Iam hora diei prima, et adhuc dubius et quasi languidus dies. Iam quassatis circumiacentibus tectis, quamquam in aperto loco, angusto tamen, magnus et certus ruinae metus. (7) Tum demum excedere oppido visum; sequitur vulgus attonitum, quodque in pavore simile prudentiae, alienum consilium suo praefert, ingentique agmine abeuntes premit et impellit. (8) Egressi tecta consistimus. Multa ibi miranda, multas formidines patimur. Nam vehicula quae produci iusseramus, quamquam in planissimo campo, in contrarias partes agebantur, ac ne lapidibus quidem fulta in eodem vestigio quiescebant. (9) Praeterea mare in se resorberi et tremore terrae quasi repelli videbamus. Certe processerat litus, multaque animalia maris siccis harenis detinebat. Ab altero latere nubes atra et horrenda, ignei spiritus tortis vibratisque discursibus rupta, in longas flammarum figuras dehiscebat; fulguribus illae et similes et maiores erant. (10) Tum vero idem ille ex Hispania amicus acrius et instantius 'Si frater' inquit 'tuus, tuus avunculus vivit, vult esse vos salvos; si periit, superstites voluit. Proinde quid cessatis evadere?' Respondimus non commissuros nos ut de salute illius incerti nostrae consuleremus. (11) Non moratus ultra proripit se effusoque cursu periculo aufertur. Nec multo post illa nubes descendere in terras, operire maria; cinxerat Capreas et absconderat, Miseni quod procurrit abstulerat. (12) Tum mater orare hortari iubere, quoquo modo fugerem; posse enim iuvenem, se et annis et corpore gravem bene morituram, si mihi causa mortis non fuisset. Ego contra salvum me nisi una non futurum; dein manum eius amplexus addere gradum cogo. Paret aegre incusatque se, quod me moretur.

(13) Iam cinis, adhuc tamen rarus. Respicio: densa caligo tergis imminebat, quae nos torrentis modo infusa terrae sequebatur. 'Deflectamus' inquam 'dum videmus, ne in via strati comitantium turba in tenebris obteramur.' (14) Vix consideramus, et nox - non qualis illunis aut nubila, sed qualis in locis clausis lumine exstincto. Audires ululatus feminarum, infantum quiritatus, clamores virorum; alii parentes alii liberos alii coniuges vocibus requirebant, vocibus noscitabant; hi suum casum, illi suorum miserabantur; erant qui metu mortis mortem precarentur; (15) multi ad deos manus tollere, plures nusquam iam deos ullos aeternamque illam et novissimam noctem mundo interpretabantur. Nec defuerunt qui fictis mentitisque terroribus vera pericula augerent. Aderant qui Miseni illud ruisse illud ardere falso sed credentibus nuntiabant. (16) Paulum reluxit, quod non dies nobis, sed adventantis ignis indicium videbatur. Et ignis quidem longius substitit; tenebrae rursus cinis rursus, multus et gravis. Hunc identidem assurgentes excutiebamus; operti alioqui atque etiam oblisi pondere essemus. (17) Possem gloriari non gemitum mihi, non vocem parum fortem in tantis periculis excidisse, nisi me cum omnibus, omnia mecum perire misero, magno tamen mortalitatis solacio credidissem.

(18) Tandem illa caligo tenuata quasi in fumum nebulamve discessit; mox dies verus; sol etiam effulsit, luridus tamen qualis esse cum deficit solet. Occursabant trepidantibus adhuc oculis mutata omnia altoque cinere tamquam nive obducta. (19) Regressi Misenum curatis utcumque corporibus suspensam dubiamque noctem spe ac metu exegimus. Metus praevalebat; nam et tremor terrae perseverabat, et plerique lymphati terrificis vaticinationibus et sua et aliena mala ludificabantur.

(20) Nobis tamen ne tunc quidem, quamquam et expertis periculum et exspectantibus, abeundi consilium, donec de avunculo nuntius.

Haec nequaquam historia digna non scripturus leges et tibi scilicet qui requisisti imputabis, si digna ne epistula quidem videbuntur. Vale.


~D

[Michaelyus]

TIBI GRATIAS AGO, ALBEDIASPASON!

Those are enormous letters! They look so easy to read in their English translations. I'll get round to reading them sometime.

Those 's are so awkward. Is it possible to disable smiley's from one part of the text to another?

Thanks again, Whiteoctave.

[Michaelyus]

Has anyone read BBC's "Pompeii: The Last Day" book? Is it good on the profiles of the people who were caught in the eruption, such as Stephanus the greedy fuller or Modestus the baker who put 81 loaves in the oven before the eruption or the son of Caecilius the banker, who fled to England?

[Michaelyus]

And what was that paint used in graffiti writing at Pompeii and how do you make it?

[Michaelyus]

..It's called dipinti. Would the Pompeiians have called it that?


CVRMIHINEMODICIT

[Michaelyus]

OK, next chorus:

What? Another tremor? The few doors creak so loudly, the lamps swing, the cups toast themselves. The earth is rumbling very violently, the earth is rumbling violently. Oh how annoying and troublesome the tremors are. Troublesome tremors, I curse you, we curse you.

My translation:

Quid? Alius tremor? Valvae pauci stridant sic clare, lunercae huc illuc iactantur et calices se propinant. Terrra territ violenter multum, terra vehementissime trepidat. O, ut molesti incommidique tremores sunt. O tremores, vos exsecror, vos exsecramur.

[whiteoctave]

the latin is nice.
a few points can be made, if you are interested. paucae strident surely for pauci stridant? sic means so in the sense of 'thus' rather than an emphatic sense, for which tam with the adverb is the best. clare can mean loudly, but is generally used of shrill or sonorous noises - it need not be changed if you like it. lunercae is alacking a verb, just having the preposition huc illuc, perhaps that's a purposefully elliptic construction to highlight the chaos? the next sentence is nice; if rearranged to terra territ valded violenter, vehentissime trepidat terra,you have a nice alliterative and chiastic sentence, that perhaps underlines the commotion. the first o should perhaps be replaced by eheu (vel sim.), since o is typically used invocations (as you correctly use it in the second) rather than an exclamation of annoyance. also ut should be replaced by quam, for that is the 'how' of exclamatory clauses. incommodique for incommidique. the last sentence is nice.

~D

[chrisb]

Have you tried reading Lytton Strachey's 'The Last Days of Pompei'? At one time, it was available in paperback in the Everyman series.

Hope this helps,

chrisb

[Michaelyus]

Could someone proof read all of the below?

The next chorus commemorates the festival on the 24th of August, dedicated to Nemesis and Moira, two of the fates, goddesses of doom and revenge respectively (I think):

Do not revenge trouble our hearts, nor let doom loom ominously over the hills and mountains, O Fates, do not have us destroyed. O Fates, O Nemesis and Moira, do not tear us away from life, but preserve us. o nemesis and Moira, do not destroy us.

Noli ultio corda nostra concedere vexare, noli fatum super montes collesque malis omnibus concedere apparere, o Fata, noli praemature nos delere. O Fata, O Nemesis, O Moira noli nos scindere procul vita, sed servant nos. O Nemesis Moiraque, noli nos oblitterare.

________________

How do you get a harp to sound like a lyre?

[Michaelyus]

O magna dea Isis
Sana maritum Osiris
O magna dea vitae
O Isis, ipsa magna maga
Ea, quae est misericors
Concede Osirem nasci
Adiuta ad auroram Ram ascendere
Expergisceris, O Isis
Regina universae
Auro vestimus te
Electro decoramus te
-------------------------
Ornatrix! Ablua ac decora comam!
------------------------
Nardo perungimus et murra illineris
Creta, carbone et ochra cutem tingint
Aqua a Nilo te lavint
Offerimus flores loti et turem tibi
Damus vestes sericas gemmeas
O Isis, cara mater
Regina solis Nilique
Illae quae purgat et expolit
Domina magici aeternitatisque
Maga divitiarum, gemmae, commercii
O Isis, fer nobis diem bonus
--------------------------
Pax Numerio Popido Celsino
___________________

From line 10 onwards, I use the ablative to denote the instrument of the pampering. I do not know if this is the correct usage. I await your corrections.

[Michaelyus]

Sinfonia

Recitative: solo soprano 1
Praetero per Portam Forensae ad culmen collis. Sinus est tam suavis, iucundus, amoenusque; mare cyaneum, caelum caeruleum; omnia coruscant par sapphiro. Undae quae volvunt, quae olent par sali; o mare est tam tranquillum! Ex aquae haec veniunt pro palato delectationes, o quam delictatos sunt!

Aria: solo soprano 1
Gloria magno sino, gloria, gloria, gloria sino Cumae. Mare nitet ita suaviter iucunde amoeneque, par sapphiro nitet, par sapphiro coruscat. Gloria magno sino, gloria, gloria, gloria magno nitido sino Cumae.
_______________________________

I can't find the conjunction "like" in my dictionary... the one that corresponds to French "comme" and Spanish "como" (no accent). I've used par, but I'm not sure if it is correct. I've also used many accusatives of exclamation, but I don't know if these usages are correct.

[Michaelyus]

Recitative: solo tenor 1
E mari pisces varios et externos piscor, gustorum et pigmentorum mirabilium. Non solum pisces sed etiam alios cibios piscor e mari. Conchae pro horti sunnt pars capturae. Ego, piscatus sum et viduit: chemas, clams, squid, loligines, cammaros, eels, psettas; non solum hi, sed etiam plus.
Eheu, in manu caeli sum. Ubi libido Fatorum mare concitant, ubi se mare fit convulsa, iactatur sumat et est turbulenta. Ubi Neptunus irritatur, cogor fugere e mari.
O Neptune magne, noli spuere in faciem, precor tibi. Da mihi capturam diei boni.
E mari, specto quem piscor pisces boni.
____________________

The English words I couldn't find on Perseus. I'm not sure how I should use qui in the last sentence.

[Michaelyus]

Could someone find the Latin equivalent of these words please:
clams, squid, eels, like (the conjunction).

Did the Romans have interjections for displeasement? In the next duet, a wife constantly nags her husband, and the husband says something along the lines of "OK,OK" or "Alright, alright!". What Latin word would be the equivalent of that?

[benissimus]

Could someone find the Latin equivalent of these words please:
clams, squid, eels, like (the conjunction).

"eel" is anguilla, -ae, the diminutive of anguis "snake".

"like" is not a proper conjunction. There are several words for "as (if)", but you will be rapped on the fingers if you mix "like" and "as" as we do in English. quasi, velut, ut, quomodo and others can express this meaning with some differences in usage. pariter is a good word because you can say what the thing is similar to, "in the same manner (to), just the same (as)".

I don't know "squid" or "clam", and I can't find them on Perseus. If anyone used them, you know it has to be Pliny. They would probably be words of Greek origin.

Apparently the Greek word for "squid" is teuthis, so you could probably use that if you really want to. The Latin word lolligo, -ginis comes close, meaning "cuttlefish".

aha! myax and musculus are used by Pliny to mean "mussel". concha refers to various mollusks, including the oyster and scallop. Also, looking up one of the words you used, chema could mean "clam".

Did the Romans have interjections for displeasement? In the next duet, a wife constantly nags her husband, and the husband says something along the lines of "OK,OK" or "Alright, alright!". What Latin word would be the equivalent of that?

Well, they had a lot of interjections. The problem with looking those up is that the dictionaries use really archaic English words like "egad!", "alackaday!", and "forsooth!" to define them. Surely Episcopus can write you something to express disgust in Latin. There are always good old vae and (e)heu.

[benissimus]

Wow, you have done a lot! I am not as literate as Whiteoctave, but I will help where I can.

Could someone proof read all of the below?

The next chorus commemorates the festival on the 24th of August, dedicated to Nemesis and Moira, two of the fates, goddesses of doom and revenge respectively (I think):

Do not revenge trouble our hearts, nor let doom loom ominously over the hills and mountains, O Fates, do not have us destroyed. O Fates, O Nemesis and Moira, do not tear us away from life, but preserve us. o nemesis and Moira, do not destroy us.

Noli ultio corda nostra concedere vexare, noli fatum super montes collesque malis omnibus concedere apparere, o Fata, noli praemature nos delere. O Fata, O Nemesis, O Moira noli nos scindere procul vita, sed servant nos. O Nemesis Moiraque, noli nos oblitterare.

The two uses of concedere are actually reversing the meaning from the English: "don't stop troubling our hearts... don't stop appearing.". I think your intended meaning was really something like "do not concede to trouble our hearts", but this would require a result clause I think ("do not withdraw, so that you would trouble our hearts...").

procul vita might be made more emphatic by a simple e vita, emphasizing the motion rather than the distance if you like.

servant should be in the second person plural if you want to say "preserve us", which would make more sense to match the other verbs in the sentence and the already mentioned addressees.

How do you get a harp to sound like a lyre?

Why would you?

[benissimus]

O magna dea Isis
Sana maritum Osiris

I assume the last line means "heal your husband Osiris" with husband and Osiris in apposition. If so, Osiris is a declinable noun: dictionary entry, though I am unsure of the accusative. I would guess rather cautiously that Osiridem would be acceptable in Latin. Maybe someone with Greek expertise can help.

O magna dea vitae
O Isis, ipsa magna maga
Ea, quae est misericors

It is very odd to switch between persons like this (vocative followed by demonstrative and third person?).

Concede Osirem nasci

the concede again is going to reverse the meaning from "allow Osiris to be born" to "stop letting Osiris be born". Result clause would be better, or use patere.

Adiuta ad auroram Ram ascendere

I would treat Ra as undeclinable, since it is neither Latin nor Greek, nor does it fit a declensional classification very well.

Expergisceris, O Isis
Regina universae
Auro vestimus te
Electro decoramus te
-------------------------
Ornatrix! Ablua ac decora comam!
------------------------
Nardo perungimus et murra illineris
Creta, carbone et ochra cutem tingint

tingint appears to be a typo for tingunt.

Aqua a Nilo te lavint

lavant?

Offerimus flores loti et turem tibi
Damus vestes sericas gemmeas
O Isis, cara mater
Regina solis Nilique
Illae quae purgat et expolit

I take illae as a genitive in apposition with Nili. If so, the genitive should be illius. I am not sure of the gender of Nilus, but most rivers are masculine, so I think it would call for a masculine qui.

Domina magici aeternitatisque
Maga divitiarum, gemmae, commercii
O Isis, fer nobis diem bonus
--------------------------
Pax Numerio Popido Celsino
___________________

From line 10 onwards, I use the ablative to denote the instrument of the pampering. I do not know if this is the correct usage. I await your corrections.

I am fairly sure it is correct usage :]

[benissimus]

Sinfonia

Recitative: solo soprano 1
Praetero per Portam Forensae ad culmen collis. Sinus est tam suavis, iucundus, amoenusque; mare cyaneum, caelum caeruleum; omnia coruscant par sapphiro. Undae quae volvunt, quae olent par sali; o mare est tam tranquillum! Ex aquae haec veniunt pro palato delectationes, o quam delictatos sunt!

praetero has no sense of walking as do some of its counterparts from tero, -ere. Unless you mean to say "I wear away through the gate", you need to use a different verb.
forensis, -e is a third declension adjective.
Rather than tam, use quam in exclamations. Don't say "the hill is so sweet!", but "how sweet the hill is!". Also note where it says mare est tam tranquillum.
caelum caeruleum should be in the nominative, since the implication is (quam) caelus (est) caeruleus.
Most of your par's you could probably replace with pariter. There are many ways to use it, though a simple dative is quite rare. Here are your possibilies: dictionary entry . Par might work, but it has to agree with the noun and would be connected with a dative.
the undae quae volvunt... sentence is not really a complete thought. Assuming undae is a vocative then, volvunt and olent should be second person plural to match. "to smell like ___" is olere + acc.
ex aquae probably a typo, should be ex aqua or ex aquis.
delictatos is probably meant to be delectatos. This doesn't really make sense though, "Oh how they have been delighted!". An active form would make sense.

Aria: solo soprano 1
Gloria magno sino, gloria, gloria, gloria sino Cumae. Mare nitet ita suaviter iucunde amoeneque, par sapphiro nitet, par sapphiro coruscat. Gloria magno sino, gloria, gloria, gloria magno nitido sino Cumae.

I don't understand the first or last line of this one. I think sino is being used as the ablative of sinus, but sinus is 4th declension so the ablative is sinu.
use quam instead of ita since you are making a remark and not so much describing the manner of something.

I can't find the conjunction "like" in my dictionary... the one that corresponds to French "comme" and Spanish "como" (no accent).

These are both sensibly from the Latin quomodo "in which manner, how". It can be used similarly much of the time. For example nitet quomodo sapphirus (nitet) "it shines how [=like] a sapphire (shines)".

I've also used many accusatives of exclamation, but I don't know if these usages are correct.

I only saw one, but perhaps the others were neuter and hard to recognize as such? Accusatives of exclamation are good in some situations, but you have to make sure that you haven't set them up for an implied verb by having other words in the sentence that are modified by a verb.

[benissimus]

Recitative: solo tenor 1

E mari pisces varios et externos piscor, gustorum et pigmentorum mirabilium. Non solum pisces sed etiam alios cibios piscor e mari. Conchae pro horti sunnt pars capturae. Ego, piscatus sum et viduit: chemas, clams, squid, loligines, cammaros, eels, psettas; non solum hi, sed etiam plus.

piscor does not take the accusative of the thing that is fished for. The solution to this problem (which I myself never knew about) I think will require some kind of periphrastic, but the paragraph looks like it will need quite a bit of reconstruction to change all the direct objects. Instead of something like e mari pisces varios et externos piscor, you might consider something like mihi piscatus est variorum et externorum piscium with the 4th declension piscatus, -us "the act of fishing, a catch".
gustus is a 4th declension noun so the genitive plural would be gustuum. However, sapor would probably be a more appropriate word for "flavor".
cibios I think should be cibum or cibos.
pro horti should be pro horto. I'm unsure of what you mean here. "conchs for the garden", as a decoration? You should be a little more specific or it could very well be taken as "conchs in front of the garden".
viduit is not a word, I think you mean vidi "I have seen".
in non solum hi, hi should be accusative since the implied verb is visi (and the nonstandard usage of piscatus sum). Not sure why it is masculine though, why not neuter?

Eheu, in manu caeli sum. Ubi libido Fatorum mare concitant, ubi se mare fit convulsa, iactatur sumat et est turbulenta. Ubi Neptunus irritatur, cogor fugere e mari.
O Neptune magne, noli spuere in faciem, precor tibi. Da mihi capturam diei boni.
E mari, specto quem piscor pisces boni.

concitant needs to agree in number with whatever the subject of the sentence is, presumably libido. I like this passage in particular
mare is neuter so convulsa and turbulenta should also be.
precor takes an accusative of the person being prayed to, not a dative.

The English words I couldn't find on Perseus. I'm not sure how I should use qui in the last sentence.

I need a translation of the last line E mari, specto... to figure out what we need do with quem.

[whiteoctave]

a fine and thorough reply by b.
acc. of osiris is osirim; nilus in indeed masc.; i do not see your problem with concedere and the inf.- in classical lat. it is a common constr.n for 'grant that X' happens; ra as indeclinable is sound; piscatus is only found thrice in all latin meaning the act of fishing, and would be odd in the construction mihi p. est, surely; expiscor takes acc. of thing caught, though it is attested only in figurative usages of 'fishing out' info., though such a usage clearly came from a concr. use; for clam 'chema' seems the most obvious suggestion; lolliga is prob. the closest for squid, or sepia, though neither is spot on- i think the scientific 'sol.n' has been sepiateuthis vel sim.; par with the dat., if in agreement, is fine.

~D

[benissimus]

i do not see your problem with concedere and the inf.- in classical lat. it is a common constr.n for 'grant that X' happens;

ah, I was not looking hard enough for that usage. I must apologize to Michaelyus then for that added stress. Apparently this and the result clause are of common usage.

expiscor takes acc. of thing caught, though it is attested only in figurative usages of 'fishing out' info., though such a usage clearly came from a concr. use;

annoying how they omit such a useful word from the English-Latin search. Surely they must have had a way of saying someone caught a fish.

I pass graces, whiteoctave, to you.

[Michaelyus]

Thank you Benissimus.

How do you get a harp to sound like a lyre?

Why would you?

This is to become an opera (my opus 1... an opera????? I should have started with a string quartet), and the harp is to accompany the poetry recitals (which were usually done with the lyre).

The recitative of the ceremony of Isis has a leading role; a tenor playing the (full-time) priest of Isis. He will turn round to speak to the worshippers at certain points, so:

Offerimus flores loti et turem tibi
Damus vestes sericas gemmeas
O Isis, cara mater
Regina solis Nilique
------------------------
Illae quae purgat et expolit

Ehm... illae is mean to be illa.
_____________________________
The edited recitative for solo sopr. 1:

Praetereo/Ambulo per Portam Forensis ad culmen collis. Sinus est tam suavis, iucundus, amoenusque; mare cyaneum, caelus caeruleus; omnia coruscant quomodo sapphiro. Undae volvunt, olent sali; o, quam mare est tranquillum! Ex aqua haec veniunt pro palato delicata, o quam delictatos sunt!

The English:
I go through the Porta Forensa to the peak of the hill. The gulf is so sweet; the blue sea, the blue sky; everything shines like sapphire. The rolling waves, smelling like salt; the sea is so tranquil. From these waters come delicacies; how delicious they are!

O quam delictatos sunt is intended to be just "how delicious they are"; using an accusative of exclamation (I know; it's wrong), referring to delicata.
________________________

Aria: solo soprano 1; part-revised
Gloria magno sino, gloria, gloria, gloria sinu Cumae. Mare nitet quam suaviter iucunde amoeneque, par sapphiro nitet, par sapphiro coruscat. Gloria magno sino, gloria, gloria, gloria magno nitido sinu Cumae.

Why do mass-writer get to use "Gloria in deo excelsis (excelsis isn't a verb, is it?)?

Does par decline? Sorry, for my completely idiotic usage of "conjunction", I mean "preposition".
_________________________________
Rec: solo tenor 1- part-revised
E mari pisces varios et externos piscor, saporum et pigmentorum mirabilium. Non solum pisces sed etiam alios cibos piscor e mari. Conchae pro horti sunt pars capturae. Ego, piscatus sum et viduit: chemas, teuthes, loligines, cammaros, anguillas, psettas; non solum hi, sed etiam plus.
Eheu, in manu caeli sum. Ubi libido Fatorum mare concitat, ubi se mare fit convulsos, iactatur sumat et est turbulentos. Ubi Neptunus irritatur, cogor fugere e mari.
O Neptune magne, noli spuere in faciem, precor te. Da mihi capturam diei boni.
E mari, specto quem piscor pisces boni.

piscor does not take the accusative of the thing that is fished for

What??? Num est vero...

The clams/conches etc. are for eating.

Concitat agrees with libido.

From the sea, I hope I fish good fish.=E mari, specto quem piscor pisces boni.

Awaiting your corrections.

[classicalclarinet]

Ah, good luck with your opera!!
The string quartet can wait.

[benissimus]

Offerimus flores loti et turem tibi
Damus vestes sericas gemmeas
O Isis, cara mater
Regina solis Nilique
------------------------
Illae quae purgat et expolit

Ehm... illae is mean to be illa.

Oh that makes sense.

The edited recitative for solo sopr. 1:

Praetereo/Ambulo per Portam Forensis ad culmen collis. Sinus est tam suavis, iucundus, amoenusque; mare cyaneum, caelus caeruleus; omnia coruscant quomodo sapphiro. Undae volvunt, olent sali; o, quam mare est tranquillum! Ex aqua haec veniunt pro palato delicata, o quam delictatos sunt!

The English:
I go through the Porta Forensa to the peak of the hill. The gulf is so sweet; the blue sea, the blue sky; everything shines like sapphire. The rolling waves, smelling like salt; the sea is so tranquil. From these waters come delicacies; how delicious they are!

I took praetereo as a different word because of the spelling, but it should work now. ambulo is also a fine choice.
If Portam is accusative then so must be Forensis: per Portam Forensem.
You are still using tam inappropriately. You are making a remark about how pleasant something is: quam suavis est sinus "how pleasant the 'gulf is"; not describing: sinus est tam suavis "the gulf is pleasant in this manner".
quomodo is a conjunction, so there is no reason for the conjoined word sapphiro to be in the dative. The implied meaning is "everything shines like a sapphire [shines]", so sapphirus must be nominative.
"they smell like salt" is salem olent.

O quam delictatos sunt is intended to be just "how delicious they are"; using an accusative of exclamation (I know; it's wrong), referring to delicata.

There are a couple problems with this portion of the sentence:
accusative of explanation is absolutely forbidden if the noun is the subject of a verb, since it then is restricted to the nominative case. You can either say O quam delectatos or O quam delectati sunt, but the accusative can certainly not be the subject of a verb.
Delictatos is not a word, I think you intend to say delectatos. Careful with this, because delictatos would be related to the word delictum "a crime".
delectatos is the past participle of the verb delecto, -are, so O quam delectati sunt would mean "oh how they have been delighted". delectati is not an acceptable choice for "delicious". You could use the noun deliciae "what treats they are!" or selectus "what choice (things) they are!", exquisitus "how exquisite they are!", or some other adjective/participle.

Aria: solo soprano 1; part-revised
Gloria magno sino, gloria, gloria, gloria sinu Cumae. Mare nitet quam suaviter iucunde amoeneque, par sapphiro nitet, par sapphiro coruscat. Gloria magno sino, gloria, gloria, gloria magno nitido sinu Cumae.

a sino still remains in the first line.

Why do mass-writer get to use "Gloria in deo excelsis (excelsis isn't a verb, is it?)?

I thought it was Gloria in excelsis Deo "Gloria to God (dative) in the highest".

Does par decline? Sorry, for my completely idiotic usage of "conjunction", I mean "preposition".

par, paris is a fully declinable 3rd declension adjective that strictly means "equal (to)" and can be followed by the dative. You have used it correctly.

Rec: solo tenor 1- part-revised
E mari pisces varios et externos piscor, saporum et pigmentorum mirabilium. Non solum pisces sed etiam alios cibos piscor e mari. Conchae pro horti sunt pars capturae. Ego, piscatus sum et viduit: chemas, teuthes, loligines, cammaros, anguillas, psettas; non solum hi, sed etiam plus.
Eheu, in manu caeli sum. Ubi libido Fatorum mare concitat, ubi se mare fit convulsos, iactatur sumat et est turbulentos. Ubi Neptunus irritatur, cogor fugere e mari.
O Neptune magne, noli spuere in faciem, precor te. Da mihi capturam diei boni.
E mari, specto quem piscor pisces boni.

piscor does not take the accusative of the thing that is fished for

What??? Num est vero...

neither the Oxford Latin Dictionary nor Lewis & Short have an example of piscor, -ari being used with a fish as a direct object. I recommend taking whiteoctave's advice and replacing each incidence of piscor with expiscor as the easiest solution.

In this area there are still several grammatical mistakes which I mentioned that have not been amended:

Conchae pro horti sunt pars capturae. Ego, piscatus sum et viduit: chemas, teuthes, loligines, cammaros, anguillas, psettas; non solum hi, sed etiam plus.
Eheu, in manu caeli sum. Ubi libido Fatorum mare concitat, ubi se mare fit convulsos, iactatur sumat et est turbulentos. Ubi Neptunus irritatur, cogor fugere e mari.

The clams/conches etc. are for eating.

why is there mention of a garden? why is pro not accompanied by an ablative?

From the sea, I hope I fish good fish.=E mari, specto quem piscor pisces boni.

say e mari spero me pisces bonos expiscaturum.

[Michaelyus]

Right...

The 2nd edited recitative for solo sopr. 1:
Praetereo/Ambulo per Portam Forensem ad culmen collis. Quam sinus est suavis, iucundus, amoenusque; mare cyaneum, caelus caeruleus; omnia coruscant quomodo sapphirus. Undae volvunt, salem olent; o, quam mare est tranquillum! Ex aqua haec veniunt pro palato delicata, o quam deliciae sunt!

The English:
I go through the Porta Forensa to the peak of the hill. The gulf is so sweet; the blue sea, the blue sky; everything shines like sapphire. The rolling waves, smelling like salt; the sea is so tranquil. From these waters come delicacies; how delicious they are!

I'm not sure about Forensa; the Porta Forensa, as it is called in English, is the supposed original Latin version of the Porta Marina, the modern form of the name (from Italian).

Delictatos is not a word

I meant delicatos.

Careful with this, because delictatos would be related to the word delictum "a crime".

They say the Eumachia building (from where this girl is from) is a fuller's guild. According to some sources, it was a slave market. Anyway...
___________________

Aria: solo soprano 1; 2nd part-revised version
Gloria magno sinu, gloria, gloria, gloria sinu Cumae. Mare nitet quam suaviter iucunde amoeneque, par sapphiro nitet, par sapphiro coruscat. Gloria magno sino, gloria, gloria, gloria magno nitido sinu Cumae.

Thanks Benissimus.

I thought it was Gloria in excelsis Deo "Gloria to God (dative) in the highest".

Oops

I'm wrong, tu dicis vero.
____________________

Rec: solo tenor 1- part-revised- 2nd version
E mari pisces varios et externos expiscor, saporum et pigmentorum mirabilium. Non solum pisces sed etiam alios cibos expiscor e mari. Conchae pro edere in horto sunt pars meae capturae. Ego, expiscatus sum et visi: chemas, teuthes, loligines, cammaros, anguillas, psettas; non solum hos, sed etiam plus.
Eheu, in manu caeli sum. Ubi libido Fatorum mare concitat, ubi se mare fit convulsum, iactatur sumat et est turbulentum. Ubi Neptunus irritatur, cogor fugere e mari.
O Neptune magne, noli spuere in faciem, precor te. Da mihi capturam diei boni. E mari spero me pisces bonos expiscaturum.

OK, I was in a rush last time, so I do apologise for any wrong, grief etc. I have caused you.
Shellfish was commonly eaten in Pompeiian gardens, Pompeii being very near to shallow pools full of shellfish (now, of course, the detritus from the AD79 eruption has driven the sea back). But, since I've used a French construction (I think it is used in Spanish): pour manger dans les jardins, para comer en jardines (that is right, isn't it?), I don't know if this is correct.
Hos is masculine, referring to pisces and conchae, masculine words overriding feminine words (or do the two genders assimilate into neuter?).

I apologise again for outraging you, Benissimus.
[size=0]Should I have used a vocative?[/size]

Awaiting my faults.

[benissimus]

I apologise again for outraging you, Benissimus.
[size=0]Should I have used a vocative?[/size]

Sorry if I came off as grumpy, it was pretty late when I wrote that.

The 2nd edited recitative for solo sopr. 1:
Praetereo/Ambulo per Portam Forensem ad culmen collis. Quam sinus est suavis, iucundus, amoenusque; mare cyaneum, caelus caeruleus; omnia coruscant quomodo sapphirus. Undae volvunt, salem olent; o, quam mare est tranquillum! Ex aqua haec veniunt pro palato delicata, o quam deliciae sunt!

That look accurate, and beautiful too.

I'm not sure about Forensa; the Porta Forensa, as it is called in English, is the supposed original Latin version of the Porta Marina, the modern form of the name (from Italian).

I am not sure what form should be used. Neither "Porta Forensa" nor "Porta Forensis" turn up any search results on Google, though "Porta Forenza" certainly does.

Delictatos is not a word

I meant delicatos.

That could also work in place of deliciae, if you put it in the nominative. Of course, you would be using the same word twice then, so it depends on if you want to avoid repetition.

Aria: solo soprano 1; 2nd part-revised version
Gloria magno sinu, gloria, gloria, gloria sinu Cumae. Mare nitet quam suaviter iucunde amoeneque, par sapphiro nitet, par sapphiro coruscat. Gloria magno sino, gloria, gloria, gloria magno nitido sinu Cumae.

Well done. It just occurred to me that you probably meant magno sinu to be in the dative, not the ablative. magno sinu could conceivably be a dative, but the more common form would be magno sinui.

Rec: solo tenor 1- part-revised- 2nd version
E mari pisces varios et externos expiscor, saporum et pigmentorum mirabilium. Non solum pisces sed etiam alios cibos expiscor e mari. Conchae pro edere in horto sunt pars meae capturae. Ego, expiscatus sum et visi: chemas, teuthes, loligines, cammaros, anguillas, psettas; non solum hos, sed etiam plus.
Eheu, in manu caeli sum. Ubi libido Fatorum mare concitat, ubi se mare fit convulsum, iactatur sumat et est turbulentum. Ubi Neptunus irritatur, cogor fugere e mari.
O Neptune magne, noli spuere in faciem, precor te. Da mihi capturam diei boni. E mari spero me pisces bonos expiscaturum.

pro is no good if it is not with an ablative. "for eating" would perhaps be quae edam (or edim), a relative clause expressing purpose
"which I may eat" or just "(fish) to eat". Obviously you will use quos if you choose the represent the fish as masculine.
Very sorry, but I made a typo earlier: vidi, not visi.

OK, I was in a rush last time, so I do apologise for any wrong, grief etc. I have caused you.
Shellfish was commonly eaten in Pompeiian gardens, Pompeii being very near to shallow pools full of shellfish (now, of course, the detritus from the AD79 eruption has driven the sea back). But, since I've used a French construction (I think it is used in Spanish): pour manger dans les jardins, para comer en jardines (that is right, isn't it?), I don't know if this is correct.

I see what you are trying to say now... Latin however does not follow a preposition with an infinitive (except certain prepositions which are used as adverbs, but not pro).

Hos is masculine, referring to pisces and conchae, masculine words overriding feminine words (or do the two genders assimilate into neuter?).

I suppose you could use a masculine gender to describe them collectively, but neuter is more often used to describe a multitude of non-human things/animals.

I am sure you won't need much more help with this but if you do then feel free to ask!

[Michaelyus]

Rec: solo tenor 1- part-revised- 3rd version
E mari pisces varios et externos expiscor, saporum et pigmentorum mirabilium. Non solum pisces sed etiam alios cibos expiscor e mari. Conchae quae edam in horto sunt pars meae capturae. Ego, expiscatus sum et vidi: chemas, teuthes, loligines, cammaros, anguillas, psettas; non solum haec, sed etiam plus.
Eheu, in manu caeli sum. Ubi libido Fatorum mare concitat, ubi se mare fit convulsum, iactatur sumat et est turbulentum. Ubi Neptunus irritatur, cogor fugere e mari.
O Neptune magne, noli spuere in faciem, precor te. Da mihi capturam diei boni. E mari spero me pisces bonos expiscaturum.

I think I'll take haec then.

For "Porta Forensa", shall I use "Porta Marina" then?

Arioso-Duetto: Bass (Julius Polybius) and Soprano (his wife):
Duo: Exornatore egemus! Ecce! Atrium est spurcissimum. Unguen oleumque sunt ubique. Muri sunt hebes. Lunercae nostrae laetae aeris nunc se infelicet fuligine et suppelex est squalida.

Are all duetti ariosi?

Recitative: Bass (Julius Polybius) and Soprano (his wife):
Uxor:Iulie, conduce exornatores. Quinque et viginti aurei sit satis.
Iulius: Ibo, ibo.
Uxor: Festina, festina!
Iulius: Cutem cura! Eo!
Uxor: Festina, mihi, festina! Non possum videre mea domum in tam condicione. (points to dirty parts of the room)
Iulius: Mox eo, mox.
-----
Uxor: Affligitur!
Iulius: Vale!

Conduce to mean "hire"
Aurei from aureus (the monetary unit; is that realistic?)
Sit from sum- sit satis to mean "should suffice"
Tam condicione to mean "such like manner"
__________________
Aria: Soprano (Wife of Julius Polybius):
Ēn! Quām | tū sĭ-tĭ- | ēns || ēt | sōr-dĭ-d(e) ĕs, | hōr-tĕ rŏ- | sā-rŭm!
Quōn-dām | sū-cĭ-d(um) ĕ- | rāt; || nūnc cĭ-tŏ | mār-cĕt ŏ- | lŭs

Thanks to Whiteoctave for help on this.
____________________
Aria: Bass (Julius Polybius):

Quīd? quĭd? ēccĕ! quīd? quĭd? ūnūs- | quīsquĕnĕ sĭb(i) īllūd lēgit. || Nōn! Cŭcūll(a) ēt Zmŷrnā | scōrtă mĭhĭ făvēnt bīnaē.
___________________
Coul all these be checked over?

[RamenSama]

Watching the developements of this thread has been a lot of fun, I just finally got around to reading the rest of it.
Quick question for Whiteoctave, from whence were you able to procure the two requested letters of Pliny so quickly? I imagin there's an online source perhaps? And while I am asking, what is this "Perseus" source you folks mention from time to time? I don't have a direct quote on hand, but I remember Benissimus stating on another thread something along the lines of, "I was unable to find it on Perseus", or "I found it on Perseus".

I'm rather new to this forum so I hope my ignorance will be forgiven.

[benissimus]

That is The Perseus Project, without a doubt the leading classics site on the internet. Particularly of use is the Tools and Information Page. I was talking about how I could not find it in the Lewis & Short dictionary there. I have my own dictionaries, but it's easier to let Perseus search the dictionaries for you

[RamenSama]

Goodlord... there is a LOT of material on Perseus @_@ ....

It's a wonder that I've never heard of it before now.

Thanks for the link, I am going to have fun using this site. =D

[Michaelyus]

gloria sino Cumae.

According to http://www.napoli.com/english/original/latina.htm, sino Cumae should be sino Cumani.

BTW, in Orff's Carmina Burana, I saw velut in the second line of "O Fortuna". Is it like the usage of quam, or quomodo, etc.?