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BLB, Collar & Daniell, § 50

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BLB, Collar & Daniell, § 50

Postby Barrius » Wed May 26, 2004 6:55 pm

From "The Beginner's Latin Book" by Collar and Daniell - can someone be so kind as to check my responses. (With exercise text so no one has to look them up).

Critics welcome. Suggestions taken. Thanks in advance.

It's been a while, but I finally managed to find enough time to make it this far. If only I could find someone to pay me to learn ....

Page 16, §50.I (Genitive and Dative)
1. Donum amici boni est gratum.
The good friend's gift is pleasing.

2. Servi boni dominorum malorum sunt defessi.
The wicked masters' good servants are tired.

3. Amicis discipuli dat pila multa.
He gives many spears to the friends of the the student.

4. Amico bono discipuli sunt pila multa.
They give many spears to the good friend of the student.

5. Amici bonorum discipulorum pila multa habent.
The friends of the good students have many spears.

6. Equus defessus cibum domini portat.
The tired horse carries the master's food.

7. Longa sunt braccia servi boni.
(Long are the arms of the good servants) The good servants have long
arms.

8. Dona domini servis sunt grata.
The master's gifts are pleasing to the servants.

9. Puellis parvis ova alba dant.
They give the small girls white eggs.

10. Servi reginis ova aquilarum dant.
The servants give eagles' eggs to the queen.

Page 16, §50.II (Genitive and Dative)
1. The gift is pleasing to the good friend.
Donum amico bono est gratum.

2. The slave has the master's cup.
Servum domini poculus habet.
Servo est domini poculi.

3. The servants have the masters' cups.
Servi dominorum poculorum habent.
Servis sunt dominorum poculorum.

4. The master gives the slave a hard egg.
Dominus servo ovum durum dat.

5. The food of the master is wine and eggs.
Cibus domini est vinum et ovum.

6. The master praises the little pupil's cup.
Dominus poculum discipili parvi laudat.

7. The tired horses are carrying gifts for the friend.
Equi defessi dono amico portant.

8. The girl has many new friends.
Puella amicum novum et multum habent.

9. The broad cup is pleasing to the new pupil.
Poculum latum discipulo novo est gratum.

10. The eagle's eggs are gifts of the good servant.
Aquilae ova sunt servo bono dona.
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Postby Pete » Wed May 26, 2004 9:18 pm

Wow, that's a lot of sentences, and most of them excellent. I am not too confident in my Latin, so rather than harshly correcting you, I shall merely ask suggestive questions, after sentences that confuse me.

4. Amico bono discipuli sunt pila multa.
They give many spears to the good friend of the student.


Does "sunt" mean give? Or does the verb "esse" with the dative show posession (i.e. there are many spears for the good friend...)

7. Longa sunt braccia servi boni.
(Long are the arms of the good servants) The good servants have long
arms.


How many good servants are there? Is the genitive "servi boni" singular or plural?


10. Servi reginis ova aquilarum dant.
The servants give eagles' eggs to the queen.


If "reginis" is dative, is it singular or plural? Don't ask me why there are so many queens!

2. The slave has the master's cup.
Servum domini poculus habet.
Servo est domini poculi.


In your first attempt, are you sure that "poculus" is even a possible word in Latin? And shouldn't "servum" be nominative ("servus") if it is the subject of the sentence?

In your second attempt, why is "poculi" not "poculum," even though it is singular and acting as the grammatical subject of the sentence?

3. The servants have the masters' cups.
Servi dominorum poculorum habent.
Servis sunt dominorum poculorum.


In your first attempt, if "poculorum" is the direct object of "habent," why is it not in the accusative case?

In your second attempt, if "poculorum" is the subject of "sunt," why is it not in the nominative case?

5. The food of the master is wine and eggs.
Cibus domini est vinum et ovum.


How many eggs? Are you putting the master on a diet now?

7. The tired horses are carrying gifts for the friend.
Equi defessi dono amico portant.

If "dono" is the direct object of "portant," why is it not accusative? And how many gifts are there? You wouldn't short-change your friend would you?

8. The girl has many new friends.
Puella amicum novum et multum habent.


Good, the friend is accusative. But how many friends does the girl have? Is it only one "new and much friend"? or are there many, "multos amicos"?

This may be irrelevant, but I'd expect her friends to be female (multas amicas).

What does "et" do?

I am glad that your subject, "puella," is rightly nominative singular. But why is your verb plural, when the subject is singular?

10. The eagle's eggs are gifts of the good servant.
Aquilae ova sunt servo bono dona.


Drat, I don't know what to say here. You've interpreted the English as if the servant were receiving the gifts rather than giving them. My first reaction was that "servo bono" should be genitive, but now I see that your interpretation can be valid too. English!

Anyway, other than those few, I thought your sentences were right on track. It must be extremely painful to learn the basics of a dead Language on one's own. You command my respect in that respect. I've never heard of your textbook, but the practice sentences look just like the ones I used to do in Wheelock. It's fun to look at sentences like these every once in a while, because when I look at real stuff it is much harder (especially that diabolical Greek).
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Postby benissimus » Thu May 27, 2004 1:10 am

Well done, both of you. I think Pete found all of them. I particularly liked the phrase "to give a hard egg"... I think I will use that from now on.
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
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Postby Barrius » Thu May 27, 2004 2:13 am

Pete wrote:I am not too confident in my Latin, so rather than harshly correcting you, I shall merely ask suggestive questions, after sentences that confuse me.


THANKS!!!


4. Amico bono discipuli sunt pila multa.
They give many spears to the good friend of the student.

Does "sunt" mean give? Or does the verb "esse" with the dative show posession (i.e. there are many spears for the good friend...)

Dative of possession. I took this literally to be "To the good friend of the student ARE many spears", but I like they way you render it as well.

7. Longa sunt braccia servi boni.
(Long are the arms of the good servants) The good servants have long
arms.

How many good servants are there? Is the genitive "servi boni" singular or plural?

Singular. My bad. Plural would be servorum bonorum. Of course, this still doesn't explain what's so great about long arms :lol:

10. Servi reginis ova aquilarum dant.
The servants give eagles' eggs to the queen.

If "reginis" is dative, is it singular or plural? Don't ask me why there are so many queens!

1st Declension Dative plural (singular is "ae").

2. The slave has the master's cup.
Servum domini poculus habet.
Servo est domini poculi.

In your first attempt, are you sure that "poculus" is even a possible word in Latin? And shouldn't "servum" be nominative ("servus") if it is the subject of the sentence?

"Poculus" should be "poculum" (neuter, not masculine) - "Servus", not "servum"

In your second attempt, why is "poculi" not "poculum," even though it is singular and acting as the grammatical subject of the sentence?

Maybe I mangled it - it should be dative of possession - "To the servant is the master's cup" - should cup be accusitive? I put it agreeing in case with the genitive domini. Explanation welcome.


I'll go through the rest in the morning - thanks for all the help - I DO appreciate it!
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Re: BLB, Collar & Daniell, § 50

Postby benissimus » Thu May 27, 2004 2:18 am

7. The tired horses are carrying gifts for the friend.
Equi defessi dono amico portant.

If you are familiar with the preposition pro, it would be a superior choice here to the dative.
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
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Postby Pete » Thu May 27, 2004 2:29 am

Maybe I mangled it - it should be dative of possession - "To the servant is the master's cup" - should cup be accusitive? I put it agreeing in case with the genitive domini. Explanation welcome.


Well, if you say "the master's cup is for the servant," cup is the subject of the verb--the cup is doing the IS-ing (or BE-ing) so to speak. A subject of a verb is nominative. The only dative in "the master's cup is for the servant" is the word "servo" (translated as "for the servant"). And yes, this is often called a "dative of possession."

Try "poculum domini est servo." ("the cup OF the lord is TO/FOR the servant" -- in other words, the servant has the lord's cup). For now, you can think of the genitive as meaning "OF" and the dative as meaning TO/FOR, as your textbook probably tells you.



By the way, nouns never agree with other nouns, so don't try to make your nouns agree. Adjectives agree with nouns.

Watch this:

"habeo puellam discipuli" -- I have the girl of the student
"habeo puellam discipulorum" -- I have the girl of the students
"habeo puellam domini" -- I have the girl of the lord
"habeo puellam dominorum" -- I have the girl of the lords


One thing you will see here is that "puellam" is always singular and always accusative, no matter how many genitive lords or students possess her. It is always accusative because it is always the direct object,--always the thing being "had" by lucky me. :wink:
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Postby Pete » Thu May 27, 2004 12:35 pm

2. The slave has the master's cup.
Servum domini poculus habet.
Servo est domini poculi.


Maybe I mangled it - it should be dative of possession - "To the servant is the master's cup" - should cup be accusitive? I put it agreeing in case with the genitive domini.


Maybe I should point out how two genitives translate. I am using "puellae" here as a genitive:

"habeo poculum puellae domini"--I have the cup of the girl of the master
"habeo poculum puellae dominorum"--I have the cup of the girl of the masters
"habeo poculum puellarum domini"--I have the cup of the girls of the master
"habeo poculum puellarum dominorum"--I have the cup of the girls of the masters


In other words, as I said, nouns do not try to "agree." If you use two genitive nouns denoting possession, then there will be two things being possessed. In the above sentences the cup belongs to the girl(s), and the girl(s) in turn belong(s) to the master(s).
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Postby Barrius » Thu May 27, 2004 1:40 pm

3. The servants have the masters' cups.
Servi dominorum poculorum habent.
Servis sunt dominorum poculorum.

In your first attempt, if "poculorum" is the direct object of "habent," why is it not in the accusative case?

In your second attempt, if "poculorum" is the subject of "sunt," why is it not in the nominative case?

Servi dominorum poculum habent.
Servis sunt dominorum poculum.

(You give me an explatinion in a following message that explains this - thank you - I know understand my mistake)

5. The food of the master is wine and eggs.
Cibus domini est vinum et ovum.

How many eggs? Are you putting the master on a diet now?

Well, if he wasn't, he should be :lol: ova, not ovum


7. The tired horses are carrying gifts for the friend.
Equi defessi dono amico portant.

If "dono" is the direct object of "portant," why is it not accusative? And how many gifts are there? You wouldn't short-change your friend would you?

I'm cheap, but this is my friend - dona.

8. The girl has many new friends.
Puella amicum novum et multum habent.

Good, the friend is accusative. But how many friends does the girl have? Is it only one "new and much friend"? or are there many, "multos amicos"?

This may be irrelevant, but I'd expect her friends to be female (multas amicas).

What does "et" do?

I am glad that your subject, "puella," is rightly nominative singular. But why is your verb plural, when the subject is singular?


Besides being cheap, I must be jealous as well. I'll give her some girlfriends Puella amicas multas et novas habet.

The instructions were to translate it as "many and new". Assuming I'm doing this correctly, would it be rendered better as multas novasque or multas ac novas

10. The eagle's eggs are gifts of the good servant.
Aquilae ova sunt servo bono dona.

Drat, I don't know what to say here. You've interpreted the English as if the servant were receiving the gifts rather than giving them. My first reaction was that "servo bono" should be genitive, but now I see that your interpretation can be valid too. English!

Looking at it again, I would rewrite it as Dona servi boni sunt aquilae ova. One question though, this translation would have a genitive "of the good servant" or "the good servant's", as well as a genitive "of the eagle" or "the eagle's". Is that any better, or have I mangled it worse?

Anyway, other than those few, I thought your sentences were right on track.


C'mon, tell me the truth! :wink:

It must be extremely painful to learn the basics of a dead Language on one's own. You command my respect in that respect. I've never heard of your textbook, but the practice sentences look just like the ones I used to do in Wheelock. It's fun to look at sentences like these every once in a while, because when I look at real stuff it is much harder (especially that diabolical Greek).


I'm looking forward to Greek, once I understand Latin. It's not painful at all - I love it - but it is timeconsuming. I think I'd do much better if I could devote time to it consistently, but for now that's almost impossible. It seems like I forget more than I learn, if you know what I mean.

If I were in a classroom, I could ask questions and learn from others in the class - the same thing applies here. I certainly want to avoid the fundamental mistakes and correct them now. Geeting the singular/plural mixed up on occasion will be corrected through practice.

Again thanks to you and benissimus for all your help, I need it, and welcome the assistance.

Edited to change multas ac multas to multas ac novas
Last edited by Barrius on Thu May 27, 2004 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BLB, Collar & Daniell, § 50

Postby Barrius » Thu May 27, 2004 1:41 pm

benissimus wrote:
7. The tired horses are carrying gifts for the friend.
Equi defessi dono amico portant.

If you are familiar with the preposition pro, it would be a superior choice here to the dative.

I haven't learned it yet, but would welcome any and all explantaions about using pro here.
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Postby Barrius » Thu May 27, 2004 1:49 pm

Pete wrote:Try "poculum domini est servo." ("the cup OF the lord is TO/FOR the servant" -- in other words, the servant has the lord's cup). For now, you can think of the genitive as meaning "OF" and the dative as meaning TO/FOR, as your textbook probably tells you.

Understood!

By the way, nouns never agree with other nouns, so don't try to make your nouns agree. Adjectives agree with nouns.

Watch this:

"habeo puellam discipuli" -- I have the girl of the student
"habeo puellam discipulorum" -- I have the girl of the students
"habeo puellam domini" -- I have the girl of the lord
"habeo puellam dominorum" -- I have the girl of the lords


One thing you will see here is that "puellam" is always singular and always accusative, no matter how many genitive lords or students possess her. It is always accusative because it is always the direct object,--always the thing being "had" by lucky me. :wink:


You lucky dog! Thank you for the thoughtful reply - I understand and will do my best to get it right from now on.
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Postby Barrius » Thu May 27, 2004 1:52 pm

Pete wrote:Maybe I should point out how two genitives translate. I am using "puellae" here as a genitive:

"habeo poculum puellae domini"--I have the cup of the girl of the master
"habeo poculum puellae dominorum"--I have the cup of the girl of the masters
"habeo poculum puellarum domini"--I have the cup of the girls of the master
"habeo poculum puellarum dominorum"--I have the cup of the girls of the masters

In other words, as I said, nouns do not try to "agree." If you use two genitive nouns denoting possession, then there will be two things being possessed. In the above sentences the cup belongs to the girl(s), and the girl(s) in turn belong(s) to the master(s).


Crystal clear now! Many thanks - you answered a question I just asked.
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Postby Pete » Thu May 27, 2004 2:12 pm


3. The servants have the masters' cups.
Servi dominorum poculorum habent.
Servis sunt dominorum poculorum.

In your first attempt, if "poculorum" is the direct object of "habent," why is it not in the accusative case?

In your second attempt, if "poculorum" is the subject of "sunt," why is it not in the nominative case?


Servi dominorum poculum habent.
Servis sunt dominorum poculum.

(You give me an explatinion in a following message that explains this - thank you - I know understand my mistake)


Great, I really think you have come a long way since last night in understanding cases. But of course poculum isn't plural, right? :wink:

Looking at it again, I would rewrite it as Dona servi boni sunt aquilae ova. One question though, this translation would have a genitive "of the good servant" or "the good servant's", as well as a genitive "of the eagle" or "the eagle's". Is that any better, or have I mangled it worse?

Your former translation and your new one are both good.
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Postby Barrius » Thu May 27, 2004 2:24 pm

Pete wrote:Great, I really think you have come a long way since last night in understanding cases. But of course poculum isn't plural, right? :wink:

ARRRrrrrrghhh!!!!!!!
Servi dominorum pocula habent.
Servis sunt dominorum pocula.



Your former translation and your new one are both good.

You are being kind. I was wrong in the original, and would change it next time around. English can be too ambiguous - a quality that Latin seems to avoid.
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