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De Cap XXXV Familia Romana (Orberg)

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De Cap XXXV Familia Romana (Orberg)

Postby pmda » Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:33 am

In Cap XXXV Orberg scribit:

1) [Magister ] Partes orationis, quot sunt?

[Discipulus] Octo

[M] Quae?

[D] Nomen, pronomen, verbum, adverbium, participium, coniunctio, praepositio, interiectio.

Orberg dicit: 'coniunctio, interiectio' v. infra.

Quid est 'v. infra'?


2) De nomine

[M] Nomen quid est?

[D] Pars orationis cum casu, corpus aut rem proprie communiterve significans…; aut enim unius nomen est et 'proprium' dicitur, aut multorum et 'appellativum'. …

[= pars orationis quae rem proprie ut Roma, Tiberis AUT rem commune ut 'urbs' 'flumen' significat]?

[nomen commune = alleltivum]?

'communiter' quid est? Adverbum comparativi?

[A part of speech with case signifying a proper or collective (abstract?) body or thing]?
Last edited by pmda on Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: De Cap XXXV Familia Romana (Orberg)

Postby adrianus » Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:48 pm

V. infra = Vide infra = "See below"
rem propriam
rem communem
adverbium
alleltivum = an invented word, not latin // non latinum hoc verbum
comparativi? = minimé // no
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: De Cap XXXV Familia Romana (Orberg)

Postby pmda » Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:01 pm

'nomen commune = appellativum' dicerem...?

Orberg dicit: 'nomina appellativa, ut 'urbs', 'flumen'.

Deinde is dicit 'appellativa': scilicet ajiectiva. ???

Idem estne 'nomina appellativa' et 'appellativa' ??
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Re: De Cap XXXV Familia Romana (Orberg)

Postby adrianus » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:30 am

pmda wrote:'nomen commune = appellativum' dicerem...?

Falsum dicas.
Nomen appellativum ut urbs unius generis est (haec urbs).
Nomen appellativum generis communis ut sacerdos aut feminini aut masculini generis est (hic sacerdos haec sacerdos).
Ambigua anglicè est res.


It can be misleading in English.
The term 'common noun' in English (speaking about English nouns) = a class of people, places, things (in Latin, appellativum nomen)
The term 'common noun' in English (speaking about Latin nouns), or more properly a noun of common gender = a noun which can be either masculine or feminine (for the Latin, communis generis)
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: De Cap XXXV Familia Romana (Orberg)

Postby pmda » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:22 am

I must understand this less than I think.

He explains a noun (including adjectives, right?) as follows:

[D] Pars orationis cum casu, corpus aut rem proprie communiterve significans…; aut enim unius nomen est et 'proprium' dicitur, aut multorum et 'appellativum'.

Part of speech with case, meaning a particular or general (Why 'communiterve'? Doesn't that mean noun of any gender like Sacerdos?) person / (group?)(corpus?) or thing...; for it is (aut enim?) a common noun (Latin sense of all genders at once) and called 'propium' or a collective noun and [called] 'appellativum'.

In view of your explanation I literally do not understand Orberg's explanation where he explains the difference between 'proprius, -a, -um' and 'communis' by then saying that they are opposites.

proprius, -a, -um <--> communis

But then he explains what 'proprius' means seemingly in opposition to 'appellativus, -a, -um' (!) as follows:

nomina propria, ut 'Roma', Tibnris [i.e. a noun meaning a particular city or river?].

appellativus, -a, -um < appellare; nomina appellativa, ut 'urbs', 'flumen'. [i.e. a city / cities or or river / rivers in general?]

He then goes on to explain...'commune' as a noun of any gender in contrast to masculinum and feminium....?

He then explains

[M] Quae nomina comparantur?

by

[D] Appellativa dumtaxat qualitatem aut quantitatem significantia.

invoking 'Appellativa' as an adjective... rather than an abstract noun meaning 'urbs', 'flumen' etc...??
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Re: De Cap XXXV Familia Romana (Orberg)

Postby adrianus » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:45 pm

pmda wrote:He explains a noun (including adjectives, right?) as follows:

Adjectives used substantively are nouns. Hic, haec, hoc felix = this happy man, woman, thing
Adjectiva substantiva nomina stant.
pmda wrote:Why 'communiterve'? Doesn't that mean noun of any gender like Sacerdos?) person / (group?)(corpus?) or thing...;
No, it means generally/commonly.
Communiter adverbium ferè seu plerumquè comprendit.
pmda wrote:for it is (aut enim?) a common noun (Latin sense of all genders at once) and called 'propium' or a collective noun and [called] 'appellativum'

You are mistranslating. "Unius nomen" = the name of a single thing (as opposed to the name of a group of many things, or a class)
Perperàm hoc convertis. Unius nomen est nomen rei singulis, cum multorum in eâdem classe est nomen appellativum.

pmda wrote:He then explains

[M] Quae nomina comparantur?

by

[D] Appellativa dumtaxat qualitatem aut quantitatem significantia.

invoking 'Appellativa' as an adjective... rather than an abstract noun meaning 'urbs', 'flumen' etc...??

What nouns are [/can be] compared?
Common nouns [as we translate the substantive "appellativa' in English], to the extent of them signifying [/on the basis of their] quality and quantity.
City and river are concrete nouns, not abstract nouns.
Urbs flumen, concreta non abstracta haec nomina.
Last edited by adrianus on Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: De Cap XXXV Familia Romana (Orberg)

Postby pmda » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:57 pm

Multas Gratias tibi ago..
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Re: De Cap XXXV Familia Romana (Orberg)

Postby pmda » Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:25 am

....in 'Pars orationis cum causu, corpus aut rem proprie communiterve significans...' what does 'corpus' mean?

Does this sentence mean: The part of speech with case usually meaning a [person? / body (as in group of things?] or thing?

mmmm ....I must be lacking in intelligence....as I'm still not clear why he's using the words he is. I think it's because I've been taking his explanation in the margins to be be of certain words when they are of similar words in the same sentence.

Looking at

[M] Nomen quid est?

[D] Pars orationis cum casu, corpus aut rem proprie communiterve significans…; aut enim unius nomen est et 'proprium' dicitur, aut multorum et 'appellativum'. …

In the left hand margin, right next to 'proprie communiterve' he offers this help:

'proprius, -a, -um' <--> 'communis'

'proprius' I know means 'individual' and 'communiter' can mean 'in common' and 've' means 'or'. So I would translate the sentence : [A noun is] a part of speech with case meaning a particular thing or body(?) or group of things...; for a noun is of one thing and called 'proprium', or it is of many and 'appellativum'.

that you have the words: 'proprie' and 'communiterve' and 'proprium' and 'appellativum' in the same paragraph is a bit confusing.

...but then if 'communiter' means 'commonly' in the sense of 'usually' why does it have 've' at the end? that means 'or'...?

I'll try again: Pars orationis cum casu, corpus aut rem proprie communiterve significans…; aut enim unius nomen est et 'proprium' dicitur, aut multorum et 'appellativum'. …

A part of speech with case usually (commonly) meaning a particular thing or 'body'(?); for a noun is either of one thing and called 'proprium' or it is of many and called 'appellativum'.

Am I getting any warmer....? Why does he construct it like this? If the point is that a noun is either of a particular thing or of a group of things then why does he announce the fact that it's of a particular thing as if that's the main point, when, in fact, he's really saying there are two kinds of nouns....?

It seems to mean to me the following:

A part of speech with case meaning a particular or common thing [i.e. particular river: 'Tiber' or any river, 'fluvius' - as he points out in the margin right here!]; for a noun is of one thing and called 'proprium' or of many and called 'appellativum'.

This suggests that 'communiterve' means 'or in common' to stand in contrast with 'proprie' - i.e. 'individually'. I see that Whitakker's words translates 'communiter' as 'in common'....?
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Re: De Cap XXXV Familia Romana (Orberg)

Postby adrianus » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:33 am

propriè communiterve = particularly or generally = in particular or in general = in particular <--> [as opposed to // quod est contrarium huius] in general

[D] Pars orationis cum casu, corpus aut rem proprie communiterve significans…; aut enim unius nomen est et 'proprium' dicitur, aut multorum et 'appellativum'.

[D] A part of speech with case, meaning a person or a thing in particular or in general; or in other words the name of a single/unique thing is called also "proper", of multiple things [a class] is called also "common" [in English].

corpus = person, body, collection (ambiguous but all its senses apply here // verbum ambiguum cuius omnes significationes hîc aptae sunt).
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: De Cap XXXV Familia Romana (Orberg)

Postby pmda » Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:17 am

Euax! Nunc id scio! Gratias tibi ago.
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