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about the reflective adjective "suus"

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about the reflective adjective "suus"

Postby Junya » Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:08 am

Hi.


Fecit potentiam in brachio suo:
dispersit superbos mente cordis sui.



Although this is from the medieval chant "MAGNIFICAT", I vaguely remember it is a paasage of the Old Testament, probably Psalms.


If this passage is from the bible, I suppose (vaguely remember) the meaning was something like "He (God) generated a power in his arm, and scattered the proud (superbos) in the mind (mente) of their intelligence (cordis sui)".
About "superbus + genitive", there was no example in L&S, but such usage seems to exist (Gildersleeve 374, note 6).


But I have got an alternate translation (my own),
"and sent out the ones excellent in their mind (superbos mente) who are of his = God's heart (= of his liking, cordis sui)"
I'm not confident with this reading of the genitive "cordis sui", because I couldn't find the similar use in the corner for genitive usage in Gildersleeve.


(cor 1. heart / 2. heart as the seat of feelings / 3. intelligence, wisdom)


Tell me which is the right one.
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Re: about the reflective adjective "suus"

Postby Damoetas » Fri Feb 17, 2012 6:33 am

Shockingly, Google will turn up most things from the Latin Bible. When I entered the first line of your quote, at first all I found were links to the Magnificat. But when I entered "Vulgata" at the beginning of the line, it brought it right up: Luke 1:51. Here's the passage with parallel Latin and English translations: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ULGATE;KJV

Question 2: Yes, quotations from the Bible often contain peculiar grammar (by Classical Latin standards); they are translations from Greek, which has been translated from (or influenced by) a Hebrew or Aramaic original. For the first line, fecit potentiam in brachio suo, the NIV translates, "He has performed mighty deeds with his arm." Thus, potentia does not mean "power" in an abstract sense, but a specific "act of power," following Hebrew/Old Testament usage. The preposition in is redundant; a simple ablative of means would suffice in Classical usage. For the second line, your first translation was right: superbos mente is "those who are proud in (their) mind" (ablative of respect, or location) and cordis sui modifies mentis following Semitic idiom: "proud in (respect to) the mind of their heart." NIV translates less literally: "he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts."
Dic mihi, Damoeta, 'cuium pecus' anne Latinum?
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Re: about the reflective adjective "suus"

Postby Junya » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:58 pm

Thank you.

For the second line, your first translation was right: superbos mente is "those who are proud in (their) mind" (ablative of respect, or location) and cordis sui modifies mentis following Semitic idiom: "proud in (respect to) the mind of their heart



Such idioms I will never have known again, when I next encounter them.
I will translate uncorrectly again because of the lack of the knowledge of Hebrew idioms.
How should I do in such a case ? Could you instruct me (briefly, if you don't like to type a long instruction) how to deal with this problem ?
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Re: about the reflective adjective "suus"

Postby adrianus » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:33 pm

Why not this? // Cur non ita anglicè:
"He has flexed his arm [= /feigned the power in his arm]. He has scattered arrogant men out of heartfelt resolve" (or "from a resolve of his heart", id est, because it was His will/it pleased).
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: about the reflective adjective "suus"

Postby Junya » Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:02 am

Hi.

Adrianus wrote
He has scattered arrogant men out of heartfelt resolve" (or "from a resolve of his heart", id est, because it was His will/it pleased).



Yes, I feel it is a nice reading (since mens has a meaning "thought, plan, design"), but Damoetas says superbi mente cordis sui is a translation of an Hebrew idiomatic expression (and means proud in (respect to) the mind of their heart). Then how do you say ? Is there anything you could advise me about what to do (like checking up some reference book, or searching the internet) with this problem ?
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Re: about the reflective adjective "suus"

Postby adrianus » Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:43 pm

Junya wrote:Damoetas says superbi mente cordis sui is a translation of an Hebrew idiomatic expression (and means proud in (respect to) the mind of their heart). Then how do you say ? Is there anything you could advise me about what to do (like checking up some reference book, or searching the internet) with this problem ?

Id ignoro. Ecce autem versus graeci: // I don't know about that but here is the Greek:
Ἐποίησεν κράτος ἐν βραχίονι αὐτοῦ,
διεσκόρπισεν ὑπερηφάνους διανοίᾳ καρδίας αὐτῶν·
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: about the reflective adjective "suus"

Postby Junya » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:04 am

Hi, Adrianus.

As I can read Greek, with a lot of dictionary-consulting just as with Latin, I will examine it tomorrow. (Saturday and Sunday I want to use for learning about Buddhism, as I am a Buddhist.)

By the way, this passage is from the New Testament, Luke, uttered by the virgin Mary, which is originally written in Greek,
then,
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Re: about the reflective adjective "suus"

Postby Junya » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:03 am

Thank you Adrianus, the Greek text you gave me seems to be a big help.


Ἐποίησεν (he made) κράτος (power) ἐν (in) βραχίονι (the arm) αὐτοῦ (of himself = his),
διεσκόρπισεν (he scattered abroad) ὑπερηφάνους (overweening, arrogant / magnificent, sublime) διανοίᾳ (in respect of thought, opinion / in respect of purpose, intention / in respect of intelligence) καρδίας (of the heart / of the desire / *** of the mind) αὐτῶν (of themselves = their)·


Though I still have to check up the "dianoia" and "kardia" in the big dictionary if they make up a phrase together,
the reflective adjective of "cordis sui" is in the Greek text a reflective pronoun in plural (auto^n).
So this reflective "sui" would be referring to the "superbos" (pl.) and not to God (sg.).


Fecit potentiam in brachio suo:
dispersit superbos mente cordis sui.



A temporary translation:
he scattered abroad the ones arrogant (or excellent --- this can also be a right choice, seeing the historical descriptions in the Old TEstament) in respect to the thought (or purpose) of their mind





+ kardia : heart
/ mind
--- anoon kardie^n exhein (having un-understanding, foolish mind)
--- kardie^ porphure (the mind, heart was troubled)
--- dialogismoi anabainousi en te^i krate^i (calculations in the mind)
--- ei thease^i tois te^s kardia^s ophthalmois (if you look at it with the eyes of your mind)
/ inclination, desire, purpose
--- kardias exietamai (I give up my desire)
--- prophro^n kardia en pantessi ponoisi (willing, earnest inclination in every hard work)




I will see the dictionary further tomorrow. And maybe I should ask people in the Greek forum.
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Re: about the reflective adjective "suus"

Postby Junya » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:03 am

Thank you Adrianus, the Greek text you gave me seems to be a big help.


Ἐποίησεν (he made) κράτος (power) ἐν (in) βραχίονι (the arm) αὐτοῦ (of himself = his),
διεσκόρπισεν (he scattered abroad) ὑπερηφάνους (overweening, arrogant / magnificent, sublime) διανοίᾳ (in respect of thought, opinion / in respect of purpose, intention / in respect of intelligence) καρδίας (of the heart / of the desire / *** of the mind) αὐτῶν (of themselves = their)·


Though I still have to check up the "dianoia" and "kardia" in the big dictionary if they make up a phrase together,
the reflective adjective of "cordis sui" is in the Greek text a reflective pronoun in plural (auto^n).
So this reflective "sui" would be referring to the "superbos" (pl.) and not to God (sg.).


Fecit potentiam in brachio suo:
dispersit superbos mente cordis sui.



A temporary translation:
he scattered abroad the ones arrogant (or excellent --- this can also be a right choice, seeing the historical descriptions in the Old TEstament) in respect to the thought (or purpose) of their mind





+ kardia : heart
/ mind
--- anoon kardie^n exhein (having un-understanding, foolish mind)
--- kardie^ porphure (the mind, heart was troubled)
--- dialogismoi anabainousi en te^i krate^i (calculations in the mind)
--- ei thease^i tois te^s kardia^s ophthalmois (if you look at it with the eyes of your mind)
/ inclination, desire, purpose
--- kardias exietamai (I give up my desire)
--- prophro^n kardia en pantessi ponoisi (willing, earnest inclination in every hard work)




I will see the dictionary further tomorrow. And maybe I should ask people in the Greek forum.
Junya
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Re: about the reflective adjective "suus"

Postby adrianus » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:03 pm

Junya wrote:the reflective adjective of "cordis sui" is in the Greek text a reflective pronoun in plural (auto^n).
So this reflective "sui" would be referring to the "superbos" (pl.) and not to God (sg.).

Well done. That explains it.
Macte! Quod erat demonstrandum.

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~ancgreek/paradigmsU/paradigmtables3BOM.html
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: about the reflective adjective "suus"

Postby Junya » Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:19 pm

Oh, "refleXive adjective", not "reflecTive" ! :oops:
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Re: about the reflective adjective "suus"

Postby MatthaeusLatinus » Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:43 am

ita vero!
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Re: about the reflective adjective "suus"

Postby Junya » Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:33 am

I'm sorry. :oops:
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