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about "magnus"

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about "magnus"

Postby Junya » Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:37 am

Hi.

A question about "magnus", or about the usage of neuter adjective.

"magnus" means "large" in spatial size, quantity, weight, time(long), voice(loud), value, importance, mentality, age.

Then, the neuter "magnum" (or "magna"), though there are only samples of importaqnce and mentality in L&S dictionary, can mean otherwise ?
I mean, can it mean "a thing of great spatial size", "things of great quantity", "a thing of great age (a thing that has existed for a long time)", "a work of great time (a work that needs or has cost great time)" ?
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Re: about "magnus"

Postby Carolus Raeticus » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:59 pm

Salve Junya!

I'm only a beginner myself, so I cannot give you a definite answer, but I believe that the use of "magnum" alone as a substantive in the cases presented by you is not advisible:

In his Hints and Helps in Continuous Latin Prose W.C. Flamstead states that one should think of the meaning, not of the form, of the English, and put concrete for abstract. One way to do that is by using relative clauses.

So, "a work of great time" (which is rather ambiguous in English, isn't it?) might be rendered like "a work, to which someone has devoted much time" or your own "work, that has cost a great amount of time [to create]".

"A thing of great spatial size" would be something like "res magna", I guess.

Also, if Lewis & Short don't list such a usage, why would one want to use it (even if were possible)? Such usage would be very rare. And as far as I know, the ancient Romans were rather averse to new-fangled expressions (Alex W. Potts, Hints toward Latin Prose Composition)

Vale,

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Re: about "magnus"

Postby Junya » Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:27 pm

Hi Carolus. :)

Your advices, especially the last one, were nice. Thank you.
But I don't feel every thing is solved about this problem.


For example, though there is no example in L&S, "magnum" as "a thing of great spatial size" seems very possible, like a pistol's name.
So, "magna" as "works of great time (works that need or have cost a great amount of time)" might be, perhaps, possible.


I am reading something, and about a sentence with this "magna", I felt this meaning "works of great time", as well as "great things", "things of great importance".
How do you think about a chirch or a chirch member saying to God you have done me "magna" ?
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Re: about "magnus"

Postby Carolus Raeticus » Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:12 pm

Salve!

Can you post the bit that stimies you?

As for the use of "magna" as a neuter noun in the plural, that might be possible. I did a full-text search for "magna" as a neuter noun (finding nom. and acc. plural) in the Latin Library-texts of Livy's Ab urbe condita and Caesar's De bello Gallico. I found two occurrences that might fit the bill:

  • Livy, Book II: "Quattuor et uiginti lictores apparere consulibus et eos ipsos plebis homines; nihil contemptius neque infirmius, si sint qui contemnant; sibi quemque ea magna atque horrenda facere."
  • Livy, Book IV: "Desineret ergo mirari cur nemo de commodis plebis ageret; eo impendi laborem ac periculum unde emolumentum atque honos speretur; nihil non adgressuros homines si magna conatis magna praemia proponantur"
  • Livy, Book XXXVII: "Ea, quae legato magna ad pacem impetrandam uidebantur, parua Romanis uisa" (although this example is not strictly what you're looking for)
  • Livy, Book ??: "Potiemur praeterea cum pulcherrima opulentissimaque urbe tum opportunissima portu egregio unde terra marique quae belli usus poscunt suppeditentur; quae cum magna ipsi habebimus tum dempserimus hostibus multo maiora." (not sure about this one)
  • Livy, Book XXXIII: "Adiecta etiam illa uox, bono animo esse regem ut iuberet, quae maxime Aetolos offendit iam tumentes querentesque mutatum uictoria imperatorem: ante pugnam omnia magna paruaque communicare cum sociis solitum, nunc omnium expertes consiliorum esse, suo ipsum arbitrio cuncta agere" (not sure abut this one either)

I did the same search for Caesar's "de bello Gallico". But there were no occurrences of "magna" as a plural noun.

Relates searches:

Search for "magnorum" in Livy's "Ab urbe condita"
  • No occurrences as a genitive plural substantive, only 3 occurrences as an adjective: 2 x "bellorum magnorum", 1 x "magnorum imperatorum"

Search for "magnorum" in Caesar's "de bello Gallico"
  • Not a single occurrence

Search for "magnum" in Livy's "Ab urbe condita":
  • Book XXIII: "magnum [ausuram] facinus" (as an adjective!)

Search for "magnum" in Caesar's "de bello Gallico"
  • No relevant occurrence

Livy uses "magna" several times together with "res", e.g.:

  • Livy, "Ab urbe condita", Book I: "Namque Proculus Iulius, sollicita civitate desiderio regis et infensa patribus, gravis, ut traditur, quamuis magnae rei auctor in contionem prodit."
  • Livy, Book III: "In exercitu Romano cum duo consules essent potestate pari, quod saluberrimum in administratione magnarum rerum est, summa imperii concedente Agrippa penes collegam erat"
  • Livy, Book XXV: "Rem se ait magnam incohasse, ad quam perficiendam ipsius Gracchi opera opus esse"
  • Livy, Book XXXI: "Quod si tantum militum Romanorum fuisset ut et Chalcis teneri et non deseri praesidium Athenarum potuisset, magna res principio statim belli, Chalcis et Euripus adempta regi forent"

All in all, even "magna" is used fairly seldom. Of course I checked only Livy (a few occurrences) and Caesar (none). One probably could check Cicero, but there a far too many files to do that quickly. I hope that this helps you.

Vale,

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Re: about "magnus"

Postby metrodorus » Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:32 pm

There is one neat, quick trick I have had recourse to, when looking up a phrase - and that is to enter it, in various permutations,into google book search. This is an especially useful tool if you composing something in Latin, as it acts as a thesaurus of phrases.

This will of course cover a wider range of Latinity, but will often throw up unexpected surprises from lesser known classical authors, and also variations in usage over the span of history.
I run various Latin sites, including Schola and the Latinum YouTube channel - the main portal to these is http://latinum.org.uk
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Re: about "magnus"

Postby Junya » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:32 pm

Thank you Carolus. I have to examine those things you gave me, and the examinating work will take me a time, for I am very slow in reading Latin, consulting dictionary many times. But thank you very much, I will report you how I have decided later.
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Re: about "magnus"

Postby Junya » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:38 pm

and thank you, too, to Metrodorus.
I am astonished that there was such a way of researching about words.
As I don't like using the internet very much (because somehow it gives me a headache), I now find myself much fallen behind people here.
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Re: about "magnus"

Postby Sceptra Tenens » Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:17 pm

Junya wrote:Thank you Carolus. I have to examine those things you gave me, and the examinating work will take me a time, for I am very slow in reading Latin, consulting dictionary many times. But thank you very much, I will report you how I have decided later.


That's how we all do it until the words begin to stick, so don't ever feel bad about it.
mihi iussa capessere fas est
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Re: about "magnus"

Postby Junya » Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:11 pm

I checked the sentences that include "magna" which Carolus gave me.
But I couldn't decide if there was a use of "magna" as meaning "things of great time (things that need or have cost a great amount of time)".

But thank you.






Below is just an evidence that I examined the sentences Carolus gave me.

---------------------------------

As for the use of "magna" as a neuter noun in the plural, that might be possible. I did a full-text search for "magna" as a neuter noun (finding nom. and acc. plural) in the Latin Library-texts of Livy's Ab urbe condita and Caesar's De bello Gallico. I found two occurrences that might fit the bill:




Livy, Book II: "Quattuor et uiginti lictores apparere consulibus et eos ipsos plebis homines; nihil contemptius neque infirmius, si sint qui contemnant; sibi quemque ea magna atque horrenda facere."

(This magna is not of time.)




Livy, Book IV: "Desineret (he should have stopped) ergo mirari cur nemo de commodis plebis (for the profit of, without injury to the people) ageret; eo impendi laborem ac periculum unde emolumentum atque honos speretur; nihil non adgressuros homines si magna ( ) conatis (to the ones who have tried to achieve) magna praemia proponantur"

(This magna may be of importance or of time)




Livy, Book XXXVII: "Ea, quae legato magna ad pacem impetrandam (to be achieved) uidebantur, parua Romanis uisa" (although this example is not strictly what you're looking for)

(This magna may be of importance or of time.)




Livy, Book ??: "Potiemur (we will possess + abl.) praeterea cum (firstly) pulcherrima opulentissimaque urbe tum (then next) opportunissima portu egregio (good port) unde (then after) terra marique quae belli usus poscunt (require that) suppeditentur (should be supplied); quae (urbs and portus and terra and mare) cum (after) magna ( ) ipsi habebimus tum (then) dempserimus (we will have snatched) hostibus multo maiora." (not sure about this one)

(This magna is not of time.)




Livy, Book XXXIII: "Adiecta etiam illa uox, bono animo esse regem ut iuberet (was commanding), quae maxime Aetolos offendit iam tumentes (excited) querentesque (complaining) mutatum (has changed) uictoria imperatorem: ante pugnam omnia magna paruaque (matters of great and small value, importance) communicare (to share) cum sociis solitum (he was accustomed to), nunc omnium expertes consiliorum esse, suo ipsum arbitrio (decision) cuncta agere" (not sure abut this one either)

(This magna is not of time.)(This magna is of importance.)





Livy, "Ab urbe condita", Book I: "Namque Proculus Iulius, sollicita (disturbed) civitate desiderio (desire / petition / need) regis et infensa (hostile) patribus, gravis, ut traditur, quamuis magnae rei auctor in contionem prodit."

(This mangae is not of time.) (This magna is of importance.)



Livy, Book III: "In exercitu Romano cum duo consules essent potestate pari, quod saluberrimum in administratione magnarum rerum est, summa imperii concedente Agrippa penes collegam erat"

(This magna is of importance.)



Livy, Book XXV: "Rem se ait magnam incohasse, ad quam perficiendam ipsius Gracchi opera opus esse"

(This magnam may be of importance or of time.)



Livy, Book XXXI: "Quod si tantum militum Romanorum fuisset ut et Chalcis teneri et non deseri (to be forsaken) praesidium Athenarum potuisset, magna res principio statim belli, Chalcis et Euripus adempta (snatched away) regi (from the king) forent"

(This magna is not of time.) (This magna is of importance.)




All in all, even "magna" is used fairly seldom. Of course I checked only Livy (a few occurrences) and Caesar (none). One probably could check Cicero, but there a far too many files to do that quickly. I hope that this helps you.

Vale,

Carolus Raeticus
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Re: about "magnus"

Postby Damoetas » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:08 pm

Hey everyone,

If you want to search for things, a great resource is Perseus under Philologic (http://perseus.uchicago.edu/latin.html). To search for a particular inflected form, type e.g. "magna" in the search field (with no quotes). To search for all forms of the word, in any case or gender, type "lemma:magnus" (again, no quotes). You can also narrow the search to an individual author or text.

Have fun....
Dic mihi, Damoeta, 'cuium pecus' anne Latinum?
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Re: about "magnus"

Postby Junya » Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:10 am

Hi. Do people here all do such word search using the internet ? How amazing ! :shock:
As I am still on a beginner's level, my hands are full consulting Lewis & Short (and reading a bunch of sample sentences with smaller dictionaries) and I think I can't extend my work out into even searching the internet such way.
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Re: about "magnus"

Postby Damoetas » Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:04 am

It's wise not to overextend yourself! Dictionaries will have most of what you need at this level.... The more advanced search engines will be waiting for you when you reach that point :)
Dic mihi, Damoeta, 'cuium pecus' anne Latinum?
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Re: about "magnus"

Postby Junya » Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:15 am

Oh I want to get there soon !
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