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quemadmodum

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quemadmodum

Postby Junya » Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:11 am

Hi.


I consulted L&S for "quemadmodum", but the definition there was scanty. I am vague. I don't clearly understand the word by it

It's interrogative use is "how? in what manner?".
So its relative use would be "as".

But seeing a sample sentence, I feel a force of the final use or consecutive use. Other relative words like "ut" have such an extention of meaning, as I remember. So this word (quemadmodum) may have it too.

semper vigilavi et providi, quemadmodum salvi esse possemus
(we have been vigilant, so that we could be safe ----is this reading correct ?)




And I am not sure about this sample sentence under the article of "relative use".

ego omnem rem scio, quemadmodum est
(I know every thing, as it is --- in this reading quemadmodum is treated as relative ---- I also read it as "I know every thing, in what manner it is," in this reading "quemadmodum" is interrogative.)





Tell me please as much as you know about "quemadmodum".
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Re: quemadmodum

Postby Patruus » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:57 pm

Semper vigilavi et providi, quemadmodum salvi esse possemus.
I have continually watched and taken care of the means by which we might be safe.

"Possemus" is glossed by Bennett as a "deliberative subjunctive in an indirect question".
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Re: quemadmodum

Postby timeodanaos » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:02 pm

"ad quem modum" : literally in which manner

Quemadmodum may be interrogative or relative. There's really not much to it. As with the other "qu"-pronouns, there are tons of possible syntactic relations. Don't treat it differently from other relative/interrogatives.

As Patruus says, the subjunctive in the example is determined because quemadmodum there is interrogative as thus introduces an indirect question.

ego omnem rem scio, quemadmodum est I know everything, in just the manner that it is. (in other words, I know it all, and I always take on the right point of view of the matter)
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Re: quemadmodum

Postby Junya » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:44 pm

Thank you.

Timeodanaos wrote :
Quemadmodum may be interrogative or relative. There's really not much to it. As with the other "qu"-pronouns, there are tons of possible syntactic relations. Don't treat it differently from other relative/interrogatives.


I see. That's what I wanted to know.





One more.
Patruus wrote :
Semper vigilavi et providi, quemadmodum salvi esse possemus.
I have continually watched and taken care of the means by which we might be safe.

"Possemus" is glossed by Bennett as a "deliberative subjunctive in an indirect question".


I think you are right, but, this sample sentence is given under the heading of the relative use of "quemadmodum".
Then, what do you say about it ?
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Re: quemadmodum

Postby Patruus » Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:08 pm

Junya wrote:Patruus wrote :
Semper vigilavi et providi, quemadmodum salvi esse possemus.
I have continually watched and taken care of the means by which we might be safe.

"Possemus" is glossed by Bennett as a "deliberative subjunctive in an indirect question".


I think you are right, but, this sample sentence is given under the heading of the relative use of "quemadmodum".
Then, what do you say about it ?


The use of the subjunctive in the dependent clause makes it more likely that it is an indirect question - cf. §176 on this page -
http://books.google.com/books?id=v2JmZCV-WtoC&pg=PA113
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Re: quemadmodum

Postby Junya » Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:22 am

Hi, Patruus.

The explanation in the book you introduced to me was very nice. I undersood well. I am informed very nicely. Thank you.
I still wonder why the L&S gave that sample sentence under the heading of the relative use, though.
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Re: quemadmodum

Postby Sceptra Tenens » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:12 pm

はじめまして。

It does seem to blur the line, but maybe this will help:

ego omnem rem scio, quemadmodum est - "I know everything, such as it is"

semper vigilavi, et providi, quemadmodum salvi esse possemus - "I always watched and looked ahead, and thus promoted our safety"

Of course, I was obligated to translate loosely in order to show the relative aspects as I saw them.
mihi iussa capessere fas est
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Re: quemadmodum

Postby timeodanaos » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:36 pm

Sceptra Tenens wrote:semper vigilavi, et providi, quemadmodum salvi esse possemus - "I always watched and looked ahead, and thus promoted our safety"

But that makes the subjunctive harder to explain, doesn't it?
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Re: quemadmodum

Postby Sceptra Tenens » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:54 pm

True, but I was focused more on the quemadmodum. The translation had to be loose to explain either one (at least, for my unskilled mind to explain them), so I ignored possemus. I'm sure that it could be written in a way to take both into account, but I haven't bothered to read the actual context, and I'm sure someone else could do better than myself.

To be honest, I don't understand the use of the subjunctive there quite well enough to try to explain it (or, at least, not well enough to convince anyone any more than myself). It seems an odd place for a question, direct or not.
mihi iussa capessere fas est
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Re: quemadmodum

Postby Junya » Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:44 am

Thank you for addressing me in Japanese, Sceptra Tenens. :D

semper vigilavi, et providi, quemadmodum salvi esse possemus


Regarding L&S put this sample sentence as a sample for the relative use of "quemadmodum",
the subjunctive "possemus" could be subjunctive only because it is in a subordinate clause.
And the phrase "salvi esse possemus" may mean "we may be going to be able to be safe",
(The imperfect can express a progressiveness in the past "was going to".)
with quemadmodum meaning "so that".

What do you think about my guess, Timeodanaos ?
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