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Orberg and meter

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Orberg and meter

Postby pmda » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:10 pm

Orberg explains that a syllable ending in a consonant is long...yet all guidelines I've read on the internet say a syllable ending in a double consonant is long..

He then provides an example...?
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Re: Orberg and meter

Postby adrianus » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:17 pm

Rectus est.
He's right.

In "amat" verbo, correpta "a-" syllaba est, "-mat" syllaba longa.
In "amatum", correpta et "a-" et "-ma-" syllaba, longa "-tum".

In "amat eum", correpta "a-", correpta "-ma-", correpta "-t e-", longa "-um".


"quae mihi reddat eum vel eo me solvat amantem"
"quae mi-hi | red-da-t e-|-um ve-l e-|-ō mē | sol-va-t a-|-man-tem"
[Aeneis IV.479]
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Orberg and meter

Postby cb » Fri Dec 16, 2011 8:36 am

hi, have a look at an explanation of latin syllables, which should hopefully answer your qn. see e.g. bennett s4:

http://www.archive.org/stream/newlating ... 8/mode/2up

in s4 see (3) (which deals with the situation of two consonants together) and then (4) (which deals with exceptions to the rule, i.e. where two consonants together do not always make the preceding syllable heavy).

to give some e.g.s from the beginning of the aeneid:

line 1. ARMA VIRVMQVE CANO...

ARMA falls into s4(3) in bennett's grammar linked above: the first syllable is AR and so it is heavy and so scans long.

line 7. ALBANIQVE PATRES

PATRES here falls into s4(4) in bennett's grammar linked above: the first syllable is PA (both the T and the S get pushed to the beginning of the next syllable), and so it is light (because the vowel is short and there's no consonant at the end of the syllable) and so scans short - although iin other places, syllables like this can scan long in both grk and latin...

by the way, in both grk and latin metrics you'll see that the current approach tends to be to describe syllables as heavy or light rather than long or short. this is to avoid confusion with vowel length. you can see more on this in modern explanations of meter, phonetics etc.

adrian, why do you say "In "amatum", correpta et "a-" et "-ma-" syllaba, longa "-tum""

cheers, chad
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Re: Orberg and meter

Postby adrianus » Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:20 pm

Yes, I made a mistake. I should have written "amātum"
Ita, erravi. "Amātum" scripturum fuit.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Orberg and meter

Postby cb » Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:54 pm

hi adrian, ok cool. just to check: what does SCRIPTVRVM FVIT mean? i would have expected SCRIBENDVM FVIT in classical latin.

cheers, chad
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Re: Orberg and meter

Postby adrianus » Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:56 pm

I intended "it was going to be written [but it wasn't, for some careless reason]" "I was going to write it but I didn't, for some careless reason". I make lots of mistakes in Latin, careless ones and ones out of ignorance, but I would rather I didn't.

Ita ausus sum: "Sic a me scriturum fuit at non scriptum, prae rationem obscuram et incuriosam." Crebrò latinè erro, per ignorantiam, per incuriam. Ut aliter sit!
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Orberg and meter

Postby cb » Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:03 pm

ah ok, so your english and latin versions of your posts aren't always the same? i usually don't read your latin versions (lack of time, not interest).
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Re: Orberg and meter

Postby adrianus » Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:49 pm

I believe that some things you say in Latin don't sound exactly natural in English and vice versa. Plain speaking in Latin can sound pompous in English. Additionally, I might deliberately try to say something in a slightly different way just to experiment with a new expression.
Aliquae, ut credo, quae latinè benè dicuntur admodùm falsa sonuntur anglicé et vice versâ. Nonnunquam pomposi viduntur sermones latini duntaxat clari in anglicos conversi. Nonnunquam praetereà rem mihi alieniorem scribam ut eam probem et meliùs teneam.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Orberg and meter

Postby pmda » Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:13 am

OK ...many thanks...now without reading the above (which I will do immediately after making this post) can you consider this.

Orberg quotes the lines of poetry:

Sī semper fallis,‖ iam rogo Galla, negā!

Now he marks the 'is' in fallis long. Is this because of the break in the text indicated by him (and me) with two vertical lines? Because according to his guidelines the 'is' should be short because the 'consonant at the end of the word is linked with the vowel (or h) at the beginning of the next? So why is the 'is' in 'fallis' long in this case. The guidelines would seem to indicate that this should be short?
Last edited by pmda on Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Orberg and meter

Postby pmda » Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:20 am

adrianus...

[i]In "amat" verbo, correpta "a-" syllaba est, "-mat" syllaba longa.

....according to Orberg's vocab and 501 latin verbs both syllables in 'amat' are short.
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Re: Orberg and meter

Postby adrianus » Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:36 am

Nonnè velis dicere ambas vocales correptas esse, non ambas syllabas? Positione longa est syllaba per vocalem correptam ut "-mat" consonante terminata quae versum terminat vel consonantem vocabuli sequentis incipientem praecedit.

Don't you mean both vowels are short, not both syllables? A syllable is long by position if it has a short vowel before a consonant and either ends the verse line or precedes a word starting with a consonant.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Orberg and meter

Postby Craig_Thomas » Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:47 am

pmda wrote:Sī semper fallis,‖ iam rogo Galla, negā!

Now he marks the 'is' in fallis long. Is this because of the break in the text indicated by him (and me) with two vertical lines? Because according to his guidelines the 'is' should be short because the 'consonant at the end of the word is linked with the vowel (or h) at the beginning of the next? So why is the 'is' in 'fallis' long in this case. The guidelines would seem to indicate that this should be short?

Sometimes a syllable preceding such a break as this (a "diaeresis") does lengthen, but here it is long by the usual rules of scansion: iam does not begin with a vowel, but with a consonantal "i".
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Re: Orberg and meter

Postby pmda » Mon Dec 19, 2011 4:01 pm

Adrianus / Craig-Thomas

Thanks to you both for this guidance..

Paul
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