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Latin: An Intensive Course

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Latin: An Intensive Course

Postby jaihare » Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:30 am

I just placed an order for the book Latin: An Intensive Course (Moreland & Fleischer). It will be a while before it arrives here, but I wanted to know what you guys think of it as a text. Is anyone here currently working from it? Any pointers?

Additionally, does anyone know of an online dictionary that shows long vowels?

Thanks!

Jason
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Re: Latin: An Intensive Course

Postby jaihare » Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:36 am

Anyone know if the name "Jason" in Latin (presumably, Iason) has a macron anywhere? :)

I found Iason (nom.), Iasonis (gen.), Iasonem (acc.) and Iasone (abl.) in Acts 17. So, the name is declinable. I just don't know if there should be any macrons in the name.

Gratias!
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Re: Latin: An Intensive Course

Postby Craig_Thomas » Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:26 am

It's Iāsōn, Iāsonis according to the Oxford Latin Dictionary.

There's an online version of Lewis and Short's dictionary with macra here: http://athirdway.com/glossa/?s=iason
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Re: Latin: An Intensive Course

Postby jaihare » Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:35 am

Craig_Thomas wrote:It's Iāsōn, Iāsonis according to the Oxford Latin Dictionary.

There's an online version of Lewis and Short's dictionary with macra here: http://athirdway.com/glossa/?s=iason


Thanks, Craig. I notice there that they have Iāson (Iāsonis), rather than Iāsōn. Does the second syllable in the nominative matter too much?
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Re: Latin: An Intensive Course

Postby Craig_Thomas » Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:09 am

The Greek is Ἰάσων, with an omega, so it's reasonable to posit a long "o" in the nominative. This matters because if you say it wrong in public Catullus will write a poem about you.
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Re: Latin: An Intensive Course

Postby jaihare » Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:13 am

Craig_Thomas wrote:The Greek is Ἰάσων, with an omega, so it's reasonable to posit a long "o" in the nominative. This matters because if you say it wrong in public Catullus will write a poem about you.


Yeah, I was aware of the Greek and how the ω shifts to ο in the oblique cases. I didn't know that this would have a direct effect in Latin, though. Thanks a lot.

I'm afraid, though, that Catullus would have a lot to write if he wanted to go off on my Latin mistakes. ;)
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Re: Latin: An Intensive Course

Postby Craig_Thomas » Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:47 am

My Greek isn't good enough to know if Latin writers always followed Greek quantity, though I think their Greek was good enough that they could have done so.

I've just had a peek at the old corpus (here: http://latin.packhum.org/search?q=%23Iason%23&first=1), and the nominative form is used in poetry dozens of times, but never in a way that would let us determine the o's length: it's always found at the end of a line, or (only in Seneca's iambic Medea) in the middle of a line followed by a consonant. This might explain Lewis and Short's reluctance to mark the vowel long.
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Re: Latin: An Intensive Course

Postby phil96 » Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:30 am

jaihare wrote:I just placed an order for the book Latin: An Intensive Course (Moreland & Fleischer). It will be a while before it arrives here, but I wanted to know what you guys think of it as a text. Is anyone here currently working from it? Any pointers?
I think you'll get all sorts of conflicting opinions on this, because with textbooks, one size doesn't fit all. I finished it earlier this year and happen to like it very much. Now that I've moved on to other texts I find I still keep referring back to M&F for quick points of grammar/syntax, in preference to other more detailed books. Of course that could just be a matter of familiarity, but the scope of the book is fairly comprehensive without getting you bogged down in lots of detail. (The appendix is an excellent review of the language, and includes some material not covered by the body of the book.)

It cuts to the chase quickly (e.g., it introduces the subjunctive mood and complex conditional sentences in lesson two, and all regular finite verbal forms by lesson four) so there is a steep learning curve, but there are very good, lengthy, exercises for each chapter. Someone has posted an answer key in the Textkit M&F Forum.
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Re: Latin: An Intensive Course

Postby jaihare » Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:05 pm

phil96 wrote:
jaihare wrote:I just placed an order for the book Latin: An Intensive Course (Moreland & Fleischer). It will be a while before it arrives here, but I wanted to know what you guys think of it as a text. Is anyone here currently working from it? Any pointers?
I think you'll get all sorts of conflicting opinions on this, because with textbooks, one size doesn't fit all. I finished it earlier this year and happen to like it very much. Now that I've moved on to other texts I find I still keep referring back to M&F for quick points of grammar/syntax, in preference to other more detailed books. Of course that could just be a matter of familiarity, but the scope of the book is fairly comprehensive without getting you bogged down in lots of detail. (The appendix is an excellent review of the language, and includes some material not covered by the body of the book.)

It cuts to the chase quickly (e.g., it introduces the subjunctive mood and complex conditional sentences in lesson two, and all regular finite verbal forms by lesson four) so there is a steep learning curve, but there are very good, lengthy, exercises for each chapter. Someone has posted an answer key in the Textkit M&F Forum.


I assume that knowing Spanish and how its subjunctive works (a <> e) will be helpful with Latin, right?

hablas (indicative) > hables (subjunctive)
comes (indicative) > comas (subjunctive)

I think it's about the same, right?
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Re: Latin: An Intensive Course

Postby Grochojad » Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:20 pm

jaihare wrote:hablas (indicative) > hables (subjunctive)
comes (indicative) > comas (subjunctive)

I think it's about the same, right?


Roughly similar, I would rather say.
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Re: Latin: An Intensive Course

Postby jamesbath » Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:17 pm

jaihare wrote:I assume that knowing Spanish and how its subjunctive works (a <> e) will be helpful with Latin, right?

hablas (indicative) > hables (subjunctive)
comes (indicative) > comas (subjunctive)

I think it's about the same, right?


I just now posted a question about the indicative "habeo" vs the subjunctive "habeam" which you might find of some interest.

Also, you might want to take a look at this webpage for info on subjunctives: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/lati ... fault.htm#
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Re: Latin: An Intensive Course

Postby jaihare » Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:50 am

jamesbath wrote:I just now posted a question about the indicative "habeo" vs the subjunctive "habeam" which you might find of some interest.

Also, you might want to take a look at this webpage for info on subjunctives: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/lati ... fault.htm#


Thanks. I'll take a look at both.
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Re: Latin: An Intensive Course

Postby jaihare » Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:33 am

The presentation in the link above helped to bring some clarity. I see that Wheelock holds off until chapter 28 to cover the subjunctive. That might indeed be a mistake, but I think it will take that much practice to get used to the various conjugations.

I mean, if I see videō, I am used to that verb and know that it's second conjugation, and I can imagine the changes that need to be made to it to make it subjunctive (videam). But there are some that I'm not used to. I need to build a large verb base before I am ready for the endings to start switching around. Don't think I'll be exactly ready for that until chapter 28!! I don't disagree with his decision.
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Re: Latin: An Intensive Course

Postby thesaurus » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:12 pm

My first exposure to this textbook was teaching an introductory Latin course that used it last year (it was the department's preferred textbook).

It definitely lives up to its subtitle, "an intensive course." The authors have not included any easy going grammatical introductions, fun/cultural stuff, or extra information that is not essential to reading Latin. It's very grammar heavy, as has been noted. There are tons of grammatical exercises, and it's expected that you spend a long time on each chapter mastering the material before you move on.

It wasn't the best course, in my opinion, for those new to classical/inflected languages given its high learning curb. The grammatical explanations tend to be very concise and technical. However, if you are comfortable with Greek and language learning and grammar, I think you will find it an effective and fast paced way to learn Latin without wasting any time.
Horae quidem cedunt et dies et menses et anni, nec praeteritum tempus umquam revertitur nec quid sequatur sciri potest. Quod cuique temporis ad vivendum datur, eo debet esse contentus. --Cicero, De Senectute
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Re: Latin: An Intensive Course

Postby jaihare » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:08 pm

Thanks. I'm good with inflection and such. Grammar's a great thing for me. I'm looking forward to it. :)
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Re: Latin: An Intensive Course

Postby thesaurus » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:32 am

I should also add that the textbook is definitely "front-loaded," in the sense that the early chapters have a lot of really important material. After you've covered the first 10 chapters, you've covered most essential Latin grammar. The later chapters start to bring up an asortment of smaller grammatical points and throw in readings. You could spend most of your time on the first half of the book and then move on to a different course or reader if you were so inclined.

Regarding the reading/exercises, the authors have chosen to create their own sentences to exemplify different constructions. If you want adapted/authentic texts, this isn't the best book for you. However, the example sentences will prepare you to read raw texts given that they are often fairly complex in comparison to a text like Wheelock's, where the sentences can be deceivingly easy.

The classic department's head told me that they used to use Wheelock's and had a higher retention rate for the first two semesters. However, when they moved into stuff like Caesar in the second year, there was a lot of attrition as people hit the wall with more difficult and authentic Latin. In contrast, he said that Moreland and Fleischer causes more people to drop out early on (perhaps after the first semester, which covers a lot of material in the early part of the book), but when they do start reading Latin literature, they don't encounter the same shock and difficulty.
Horae quidem cedunt et dies et menses et anni, nec praeteritum tempus umquam revertitur nec quid sequatur sciri potest. Quod cuique temporis ad vivendum datur, eo debet esse contentus. --Cicero, De Senectute
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Re: Latin: An Intensive Course

Postby phil96 » Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:08 am

I'd second thesaurus' comments about M&F as a preparation for reading extended Latin. I went on to read Harrius Potter (OK. OK. It's not Caesar or Cicero, but there are plenty of TextKit posts saying it isn't all that easy for beginners.) and was pleasantly surprised to not have much problem with the grammar (although vocab. was another story). Kept on recognising constructions as old friends from M&F.
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