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in ipsa praefatione operis unius, faciamus hominem

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in ipsa praefatione operis unius, faciamus hominem

Postby Junya » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:53 am

Hi.
I have some difficult points reading this.


[9]
Igitur ex uno homine tota haec animarum redundantia, obseruante scilicet natura dei edictum: crescite et in multitudinem proficite.


<<< So, from one man (Adam) this overflowing of souls (or, lives, or, living creatures) happened, yes, with the nature of man (or, the course of Nature) observing the command of God : "Be born and increase into a great multitude". >>>

Nam et in ipsa praefatione operis unius, faciamus hominem, uniuersa posteritas pluraliter praedicata est: et praesint piscibus maris.


<<< ????????????, the entire posterity was said in the plural form : "and they should rule over the fishes of the sea". >>>

* Here I don't understand "in ipsa praefatione operis unius,".
Is it meaning "in that formula about united work, i.e. sexual intercourse" ?
Or, "in what is said before about the united work". (in section [5] Tertullianus told about the united work, i.e. sexual intercourse *1)

*1 [5] In hoc itaque sollemni sexuum officio quod marem ac feminam miscet, in concubitu dico communi, scimus et animam et carnem simul fungi, animam concupiscentia, carnem opera, animam instinctu, carnem actu. Vnico igitur impetu utriusque toto homine concusso despumatur semen totius hominis habens ex corporali substantia humorem, ex animali calorem.

<<< Then, in this solemn duty of both sexes, which copulates a man and a woman, I mean, in a moderate kind of sexual intercourse, we feel both the soul and the body are simultaneously working, the soul by violently desiring, the body by carrying it out, the soul by driving the body, the body by action. In this way during the violent movement by a man and a woman united in one, the man's soul and body as a whole is violently shaken, and the semen from his soul and body come out, which contains moisture taken from the body, and heat taken from the soul. >>>




* And I am vague with "faciamus hominem".
Is it meaning "let's make a man (child)" ? or, "we can make a man (child)".

* And I'm also unsure why there is not a conjunction before "universa posteritas"




Nihil mirum repromissio segetis in semine.


I don't understand this "repromissio segetis in semine".
Is it meaning "promise of fruit (segetis) about seed" ?

But "seges" (corn field) reminds me of "sulcus et arvus" in section [8]. *2)
Or maybe it is from a passage in the bible.


*2 ut et nunc duo, licet diuersa, etiam unita pariter effluant pariterque insinuata sulco et aruo suo pariter hominem ex utraque substantia effruticent,

<<< that is to say, because of the blended condition the two (the slimy liquid and the heat), though separate in essence, can now as a unit flow out together and flow together into the furrow, the field that waits for sowing (= the genital of a woman), and create a human being from both of themselves (= the slimy liquid and the heat). >>>








here is a Vocabulary list I made. if you need, see it.

VOCABULARY

+ ex uno homine : = ex Adam
+ anima : the vital principle, breath of life / life (of men, of plants and other things possessing organic life) --- date ferrum, qui me anima privem (give me a sword, with it I will take away the life from myself) ^^^ me dicabo atque animam devovero hostibus (I will give myself over and give up my life to the enemies) ^^^ conficit animam vis volneris (the violence of wound is wearing the life away) ^^^ adimere animam (to take away the life) ^^^ edere animam (to give birth to life) ^^^ si tibi omnia sua praeter animam tradidit (if he gave over to you everything he has besides his life)
/ a creature endowed with the vital principle, living being --- hi deos fibris animaque litant (they appease gods by offering entrals and a living creature) ^^^ animae rationis expertes (creatures without the faculty of reason) --- (especially of men, as in English we say "souls" for "persons") egregias animas, quae sanguine nobis hanc patriam peperere suo (illustrious men, who estabilshed this nation for us with their blood)^^^ animae quales nec candidiores (persons of such kind and not very candid) ^^^ vos Treveri et ceterae servientium animae (we the people of Treveri tribe and other people of servitude)
+ redundantia : an overflowing, superfluity, excess
+ cf. redundare : (of water, from being over full) to run back or over, pour over, stream over, overflow
/ (figuratively) to flow forth in excess, superabound, redound, to be superfluous, redundant ; to flow forth freely, to be copious, to abound
/ redundans : overflowing, superfluous, excessive, redundant
+ observare (transitive verb) : to watch, note, heed, observe a thing ; to take notice of, pay attention to
/ to observe, respect, regard, attend to, heed, keep, comply with a law, precept, recommendaton, etc. --- leges (observe the laws) ^^^ praeceptum (the precept) ^^^ foedus (compact, agreement ; law)
+ scilicet : of course, evidently, certainly / (as an explanatory particle( namely, that is to say
+ natura : nature, the natural constitution, property, or quality of a thing
/ nature, natural course or order of things --- quod rerum natura non patitur (which the course of the matter doesn't allow) ^^^ delabi ad aequitatem et ad rerum naturam (be inclined to conformity and the natural course of things) ---(personified) quiis vero opifex praeter naturam, qua nihil potest esse callidius, (what maker is surpassinng the nature, than which nothing can be more skilful, ) ^^^ homines rationem habent a natura datum (men have the reason given from the nature) ^^^naturae parendum esse dicebant (they were saying you must obey the course of nature) ^^^ membra corporum ipsa declarant procreandi a natura habitam esse rationem (the members of body show that the system of procreation has been given from the nature)
/ Nature , i.e. the world, the universe
/ consistency with nature, accordance with nature, possibility
/ the natural parts, organs of generation --- Mercurii obscenius excitata natura (Hermes' erected penis) ^^^ quaedam matrona visa est in quiete obsignatam habere naturam (a certain wife was seen to have her genital parts sealed in sleep)
+ edictum : a proclamation, ordinance, edict, manifest of the Roman magistrates / (generally) an order, command

+ crescere : to come into being, arise / to grow, grow up / to increase (in size, amount, numbers, length, quantity, dimentions) / to prosper, thrive
+ proficere : to make progress, make headway, advance / to have success


+ praefatio : a saying beforehand / that which is said or repeated beforehand, a form of wards (especially religious or juridical), formula --- praefatio donationis (of donation) ^^^ ultionis (of vengeance) ^^^ sacrorum (of worship) ^^^ triumphi (of victory)
+ unus : (of that which is common to several persons or things) one and the same --- uno exemplo ne omnes vivam viverent (so that not all the people live their life in one and the same pattern) ^^^ unius aetatis clarissimi viri (excellent men of the same age) ^^^injuriae unius modi sunt ferme (the injuries are of almost the same kind)
+ operis unius : similar to [5] "Vnico igitur impetu utriusque" (during the violent movement by a man and a woman united in one)
+ homo : I guessed this means here "a child", but there was not a definition "child" and the like in Lewis & Short

+ universus : all together, all taken collectively, whole, entire, collective, general, universal
+ posteritas : future time, after-ages, succeeding generations, posterity
--- in posteritatem (hearafter, into the future) ^^^aeterna (eternal future) ^^^ infinita (infinite future) ^^^ habeat rationem posteritatis et periculi sui (may he have a consideration for the future and dangers to come)^^^ sperare Scipionis et Laelii amicitiam notam posteritati fore (to wish that the friendship of Scipio and Laelius may be well-known to succeeding generations) ^^^ sola posteritatis delectio (love of posterity, desire for offspring) ^^^ posteritati servire (serve for, look after the posterity)
/ (of animals) offspring
+ pluraliter : (a grammatical term) in the plural
+ pluralis : belonging or relating to more than one, relating to many / plural, consisting of more than one / (a grammatical term) plural
+ praedicare (transitive verb) : (literally, of a public crier) to cry in public, make known by crying in public, to publish, proclaim / (generally ) to make publicly known, to announce, to proclaim, to say, relate, state, declare
/ to praise, extol, commend
/ (of Christianism) to preach the gospel --- evangelium (preach the gospel) ^^^ baptismum (preach the baptism)
/ to foretell, predict

+ praesum : to be before a thing / to be set over, to preside or rule over, to have the charge or command of, to superintend (+ dat.) --- omnibus Druidibus praeest unus (over all the Druids one Druid is set) ^^^ provinciae (rule over a province) ^^^ negotio (to have the charge of the business = carry the business on) ^^^ regiis opibus (have charge of the royal resources ^^^ vigiliis (superintend the sentries)
/ to protect, defend (+ dat.) --- stant quoque pro nobis, et praesunt moenibus urbis (they stand before us, and defend the city-walls)

+ repromissio : (in business language) counter-promise, promise in return
+ cf. repromittere : to promise in return / to promise again or anew
+ seges (gen. segetis) (f.) : a cornfield / standing corn, growing corn, crop in a field / a field, ground, soil / a crop, fruit, produce, result, profit
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Re: in ipsa praefatione operis unius, faciamus hominem

Postby adrianus » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:29 am

Here's an online translation:
En versio interretialis:]
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/tertullian10.html wrote:[Igitur ex uno homine tota haec animarum redundantia, obseruante scilicet natura dei edictum: crescite et in multitudinem proficite. Nam et in ipsa praefatione operis unius, faciamus hominem, uniuersa posteritas pluraliter praedicata est: et praesint piscibus maris. Nihil mirum repromissio segetis in semine.

Accordingly from the one (primeval) man comes the entire outflow and redundance of men's souls--nature proving herself true to the commandment of God, "Be fruitful, and multiply." For in the very preamble of this one production, "Let us make man," man's whole posterity was declared and described in a plural phrase, "Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea," etc. And no wonder: in the seed lies the promise and earnest of the crop.


Or I would say this:
Ego aliter hoc dicam:
So from a single man [Adam] all these excess souls, in accordance of course with observing God's command: increase and go forth in a multitude. For even in the introductory saying itself of the making of one, "we [i.e., God] would make a man", a universal posterity was plurally predicted: and let them preside over the fish of the sea. The guarantee [/underwriting] of the yield [/crop] in the seed is not surprising.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: in ipsa praefatione operis unius, faciamus hominem

Postby Junya » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:30 pm

ery nice ! Yours is a very smart translation !

So, the phrase "we [i.e., God] would make a man" is a passage from the bible too ? I feel I remember something like that written in the bible.




Today, it snowed here. Snow, as I observe, falls when the temperature gets below 6 degrees Celsius outside. Every November we have the first snow, but it gets warmer again every time. Generally, snowing days are few till late December here.
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Re: in ipsa praefatione operis unius, faciamus hominem

Postby adrianus » Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:24 pm

Thanks, Junya. // Gratias tibi, Junya.
Genesis, 1.26 wrote:Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

Enjoy the snow. // Ut nive utaris.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: in ipsa praefatione operis unius, faciamus hominem

Postby Junya » Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:05 pm

Hi, Adrianus.

I believe your translation is correct, but I can't ascertain it by my way of consulting dictionary.


To take up just one point today, how did you understand the word "praefatio" ? L&S definitions are too inadequate for me to understand the word's meaning.

+ praefatio : a saying beforehand (no example sentence offered)
/ that which is said or repeated beforehand, a form of wards (especially religious or juridical), formula --- praefatio donationis (of donation) ^^^ ultionis (of vengeance) ^^^ sacrorum (of worship) ^^^ triumphi (of victory)
/ that which precedes a discourse or writing, preface, prologue


You chose the definition "a saying beforehand", if what you consulted was L&S.
How did you understand that definition ?
Just generallly and vaguely ? Or did you grasp all its possible meanings precisely ?
I am often puzzled with this kind of definitions.
This kind of definitions are intended to be just vaguely understood ? A vague understanding is enough with them ? They allow a wide range of understanding ?



I'm afraid this question would be very vague or messy to you, but...
I am still struggling with this passage, trying to ascertain your translation with my own examination.
Maybe I should ask you how you are using and understanding dictionary.
Having used L&S for two years, I still have difficulty in understanding what L&S is trying to say.
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Re: in ipsa praefatione operis unius, faciamus hominem

Postby adrianus » Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:39 pm

Junya wrote:To take up just one point today, how did you understand the word "praefatio" ? L&S definitions are too inadequate for me to understand the word's meaning.

+ praefatio : a saying beforehand (no example sentence offered)
/ that which is said or repeated beforehand, a form of wards (especially religious or juridical), formula --- praefatio donationis (of donation) ^^^ ultionis (of vengeance) ^^^ sacrorum (of worship) ^^^ triumphi (of victory)
/ that which precedes a discourse or writing, preface, prologue

You chose the definition "a saying beforehand", if what you consulted was L&S.
How did you understand that definition ?
Just generallly and vaguely ? Or did you grasp all its possible meanings precisely ?
I am often puzzled with this kind of definitions.
This kind of definitions are intended to be just vaguely understood ? A vague understanding is enough with them ? They allow a wide range of understanding ?

Praefatio est nomen e sensu eius prae quod fatum est, id est, quod introducit praeceditve. Hoc autem in loco, nisi fallor, sensum, scilicet "in primâ sententiae parte" quo "hominem" singularis numeri est, ante partem in quâ homines plurales fiunt. Aliter, sic et potes legere (modo paenè credibile): in praefatione sectionis primae bibliae sacrae, id est, libri Genesis. "Unius" autem verbum, meâ sententiâ, "pluraliter" verbo obstat, non "primi" significat.

Obiter, non satis capacia dictionaria omnes aliquis verbi sensus in linguâ quaesitâ continere, solùm spatium quod interpres petat indicare. Porrò, fieri potest tempus ipsum antiquam facere dictionarii linguam.


Well, preface means literally "the saying before" , or "the bit that precedes or introduces". In this passage, I believe, the sense refers to the first part of the sentence in which man is given in the singular, before the bit where man is referred to in the plural. Alternatively, you could also read (at a stretch), "in the preface to work one, i.e., in Genesis". But I think that the word "unius" stands here as the opposite of "pluraliter", i.e., "singular" or "of the one". It's "one", not "first".

And dictionaries can't always be exhaustive but can map an area within which the author's sense might hope to be translated to the target language. Plus the language of dictionaries can become outdated.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: in ipsa praefatione operis unius, faciamus hominem

Postby Junya » Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:03 pm

Thank you for sharing your deeper understanding with me. I'm very grateful to you. :D

I have been stuck in this passage for many days. My brain stopped working, and I couldn't make a move on having no idea to do. I would like to ask you how to manage with difficulties in study like this.

What should I do (by myself, other than posting a question here) when I don't understand a passage after I think I have checked up all the words in dictionary ?
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Re: in ipsa praefatione operis unius, faciamus hominem

Postby adrianus » Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:18 am

If a problem is knotty (very difficult), sometimes it can be unravelled by turning to a labour of an entirely different nature,—even something very physical, like digging the earth or walking in the hills. When you return to the problem, you return in a different frame of mind and that can often give results. And if you can't solve it even by that means, at least you can believe there are other things, possibly more important.

Cum problemate indissolubile externâ facie, nonnunquàm veniat solutio post spatium laborandi naturae fundiùs alterae—corporalis quidem, sicut terrae fodiundae ambulative in montibus eundi. Te reverto demutatâ mente, se saepè ostendit solutio. Quin maneat difficultas, tunc ea simul minùs gravis videtur, ante alia significantia.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: in ipsa praefatione operis unius, faciamus hominem

Postby Junya » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:55 am

Thank you for the advice. That's true, diversion is important.

But, other than diversion, doing no Latin study for a week seems to have given me a different frame of mind, that today I got a flash of an idea.
I checked up the example sentences of a definition of praefatio "that which precedes a discourse or writing, a preface, prologue", which I didn't check up before.
And I got a wider understanding of the meaning.

+ praefatio :
/ that which precedes a discourse or writing, preface, prologue
--- vocabula rustica aut externa cum honoris praefatione ponenda (a name simple or strange which should be put with a preface of honor)
^^^ jucundissime imperator (sit enim haec tui praefatio verissima) (oh, the most joyful emperor (for, this would be your most becoming preface, or title))
^^^ C. Cassius numquam sine praefatione publici parricidii niminandus (C. Cassius who is never to be called without the preface, or an epithet, of public murder)
^^^ numquam tristiorem sententiam sine praefatione clementiae pronunciavit (he never pronounced a stern sentence without a preface of mercy)


So,

Nam et in ipsa praefatione operis unius, faciamus hominem, uniuersa posteritas pluraliter praedicata est: et praesint piscibus maris.


<<< For even under the preface (guise) of just ONE work, "let us (i.e. God) create A man", the entire posterity was said in the PLURAL form : "and THEY should rule over the fishes of the sea". >>>



How is it ?
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Re: in ipsa praefatione operis unius, faciamus hominem

Postby adrianus » Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:52 am

Just saying "preface" in English for "praefatio" there is completely understandable, if slightly archaic, and "guise" is lovely, bar the notion of intentional, rather than incidental, concealment by God, which might be not an intended implication.

Justum vocabulum "preface" anglicè etsi hîc antiquius integrè intelligibile est, non minùs et "guise", separatim occultationis (non modò occludendi simplicis) notio—forsit fallax autem cum res Deum spectet.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: in ipsa praefatione operis unius, faciamus hominem

Postby Junya » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:58 pm

Thank you very much. :D Now I almost understand. But there still remains a vague point that I can't put into words now. Perhaps I ask a further question later.
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