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omni condicioni genitali praestitutum est

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omni condicioni genitali praestitutum est

Postby Junya » Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:07 am

Hi.
Having reviewed again and again, I am very inconfident with my translation here. I feel it's incoherent somewhere.
Please find for me where is wrong.




Title : the seed of body and the seed of soul are handed down in a blended condition (i.e. as a unit)


[8] Cum igitur in primordio duo diuersa atque diuisa, limus et flatus, unum hominem coegissent, confusae substantiae ambae iam in uno semina quoque sua miscuerunt atque exinde generi propagando formam tradiderunt,


<<< So, in the beginning when God created Adam, the two --- the slimy liquid and the heat * --- were different and separate things, but after having curdled into one human being, the both now blended in one human being were also mixed up in respect to the seeds they have (the slimy liquid's seed = the seed of body, the heat's seed = the seed of soul), and in that way (i.e. with the both blended) the preparational pattern for the procreation of human being was established ; >>>
(* God created the body of Adam from a slimy liquid, and made it animate by radiate ((blow, flavit)) the heat of life onto it, according to [7] right before this section.)




ut et nunc duo, licet diuersa, etiam unita pariter effluant pariterque insinuata sulco et aruo suo pariter hominem ex utraque substantia effruticent,


<<< that is to say, because of the blended condition the two (the slimy liquid and the heat), though separate in essence, can now as a unit flow out together and flow together into the furrow, the field that waits for sowing (= the genital of a woman), and create a human being from both of themselves (= the slimy liquid and the heat). >>>


in quo rursus semen suum insit secundum genus, sicut omni condicioni genitali praestitutum est.


<<< and in the one who is born his own seed will there be again (in accordance to his breed), for it (the seed) was sown in advance to his birth for the fulfilment of every condition needed for procreation. >>>

Here, I'm very vague with the dative phrase "omni condicioni genitali", and with the choice of the meaning of "praestituere", and with the subject of "praestitutum est" (whether the subject is "semen", or it is impersonal construction).






Here is VOCABULARY list I made. If you need, see it.

+ primordium --- more usually in plural "primordia" : the first beginnings, origin, commencement (synonym "principium" (beginning, start ; starting point ; origin, etc.), "initium (beginning ; entrance)")
+ duo : semen corporis (limus) et semen animae (flatus : "afflatus dei" = "vapor spiritus" in the privious section)
+ diversus : set over against each other, opposite, contrary ; different, diverse, contrary, conflicting ; inimically opposed, of hostile or opposite opinions, unfriendly, hostile
// in different directions, apart, separate : different unlike, dissimilar
+ limus : slime, mud
+ flatus, -us : a blowing, a breathing ---samples in the dictionary were mostly of the wind, air, gas, breath / the breath of life, soul
+ flare : (intransitive) to blow (cf. halo <exhale>, spiro <breathe, blow ; exhale ; give off an odor>) --- the wind ^^^ flute blows (= sounds)
/ (transitive) to blow, blow at, blow out, blow up, blow away --- hieme anima quae flatur apparet (in winter the breath which is breathed out is visible)^^^blow out flame from the mouth^^^the dust blown by the wind
+ coegissent --- cogere
+ cogere : (a transitive verb) : to drive together to one point, to collect, compress together, bring together, to assemble, gather together
--- oves (gather the sheep together)^^^oleam (collect the olive)^^^multitudinem hominum (gather together multitude of people)^^^concilium (gather an assembly = hold an assembly)
/ (of liquids) to thicken, condense, curdle, coagulate --- mella frigore (coagulate the mixture of honey and water by coldness) ^^^ lac in duritiam (condense the milk into solidness) ^^^ fel sole (curdle the bile by the sun light)



+ confundere : to pour together, blend, mingle, mix up
+ miscuerunt ---- miscere (a transitive verb) : to mix, mingle, blend
/ to share together, impart to another ; to take part in, share in a thing --- cum amico omnes curas, omnes cogitationes tuas misce (share with your friend all your anxieties and all your thoughts) ^^^se negotiis (share in the business)



+ genus : a descendent, an offspring, a child ; (collectively) descendents posterity, race
+ propagare (a transitive verb) : (of Plants) to set slips, propagate by slips
--- castanea melius ex vicino pertica declinata propagatur (chestnut is propagated better by such a slip as etc.) ^^^vitem (propagate the vine by slips)^^^ abrotonum caacumine suo se propagat (you can propagate the southernwood by its own young shoot)
/ to propagate, generate, continue by procreation --- stirpem (propagate a plant / generate the offspring) ^^^ cum ipse sui generis initium ac nominis ab se gigni et propagari vellet (when he wanted the origin of his own race and name to be born and generated)
/ to extend, enlarge, increase --- (extend the boundary of the empire)^^^ (extend the boundary of the city) ^^^ (enlarge the empire)^^^ (propagate the Christian faith) ^^^(propagate the name of Britannia)
/ (in Time) to prolong, continue, extend, preserve --- vitam (continue life) ^^^ haec posteritati propagantur (these things are preserved for the posterity) ^^^ meus consulatus multa saecula propagarit rei publicae (my consulship has maintained many generations of the State) ^^^memoriam aeternam (preserve an eternal memory) ^^^quae in mille annos propagaretur (which could be continued for a thousand years)
+ forma : a model after which any thing is made, a pattern, stamp
/ a mould which gives form to something --- buxeis formis exprimitur (be copied with the moulds made of boxwood) ^^^(the moulds in which bronze is cast)
/ an outline, plan, design (of an architect, etc.) --- cum forman videro, quale aedificium futurum sit, scire possum (when I see the plan, I can grasp of what kind the building will become)^^^ qua ludum gladiatorium aedificaturus erat (by which plan he was going to build the school for gladiators) ^^^ domus erit egregia; magis enim cerni jam poterat, quam quantum ex forma judicabamus (the house will be great; for it was already possible to feel by sight, better than we would judge from the plan how it would be)
+ tradere : to hand over, surrender / to hand down, bequeath, transmit, pass on



+ pariter : equally, in an equal degree, in like manner, as well / (of Time) at the same time, together ; (redupulicated "pariter...pariter...") as soon as --- hanc pariter vidit, pariter Calydonius heros optavit (as soon as the Calydonian hero saw it, he desired it)
+ effluere : to flow or run out, to flow forth / (of non-fluid bodies) to go out, issue forth --- manibus opus effluit (the thing goes out, slips down from the hand) ^^^^ effluit effuso cui toga laxa sinu (from her the toga loosened went out, = slipped off, with her bosom dropping out)^^^ Epicuri figurae, quas e summis corporibus dicit effluere (he says the atoms spoken of by Epicurus, issues forth from the ultimate bodies)
/ to vanish, disappear
+ insinuare : (in + sinus <bosom>) : to put, place, or thrust into the bosom --- insinuatis manibus ambulabis (you will walk about with your arms put into the bosom, or with folded arms) ^^^ manum in sinum (thrust the hand into the bosom)
/ to bring in by windings or turnings, to insinuate into, to cause a person or thing to get to a place by windings or turnings : (in general) to cause to arrive at or get to a place
+ sulcus : a furrow made by the plough / a ploughing --- hordeum altero sulco seminari debet (barley needs to be sowed at the second ploughing) ^^^quarto (at the fourth ploughing) ^^^nono (at the ninth ploughing) / (of thing which resemble furrow) ditch, trench, track, wrinckle in the skin, the trail of a meteor, scar, woman's private part
+ arvus : that has been ploughed, but not yet sown / (substantive : arvum) an arable field, cultivated land, a field, ploughed land, glebe
+ effruticare : (transitive) to put forth, produce / (intransitive) to shoot or grow forth
+ uterque : (applied to two subjects regarded severally, while "ambo" regards the two as a pair)
each (of two), either, each one, one and the other, one as well as the other, both
--- deus est in utroque parente (god is in father and mother) ^^^ sermones utriusque linguae (sermons by each language, i.e. Latin and Greek)^^^ (each ruler here and over there must take up the vow to Jove) ^^^ utriusque figurae (of each kind) ^^^ in utraque fortuna (in either case of fortune he would etc.) ^^^ ab utroque jacentes Oceano (places lying on the either ocean)^^^ utraque manu pulsat (he keeps hitting using either hand)



+ in quo : in homine
+ rursus : turned back, backwards, back / ( to indicate the reverse of something) on the contrary, on the other hand, in return / (denoting return to a former action or its repetition) back again, again, anew
+ insum : to be in or upon --- nummi in marsupio fuerunt (money was in the purse) ^^^comae insit capiti (hairs are on the head) ^^^nec digitis anulus ullus inest (any ring was not on the fingers) ^^^ (a golden, beautiful tuft of hair was on my father under his broad-rimed hat) ^^^ inerant fronti cornua (horns were of the forehead)
/ (of abstract things) to be contained in, to be in, to belong or appertain to
--- superstitio, in qua inest inanis timor deorum (superstition, in which is a groundless fear to gods) ^^^ in vita nihil insit nisi etc. (nothing is in one's life if etc.) ^^^vitium aliquod est in moribus (a certain vice is in his manners)
+ secundum : in agreement with, according to, in compliance with
+ genus : (in abstract sense) birth, descent, origin, breed, lineage ; (in concrete sense) race, stock, tribe, family, people, nation, species
+ condicioni : dative (ablative is "condicione")
+ condicio : a situation, condition, nature, mode, manner
---quae consuerint gigni gignentur eadem condicione (things which has been accustomed to rise will rise when the condition is the same) ^^^ aliquam condicionem vitae sequi (persue a certain condition or mode of life) ^^^ diversa condicio causarum inter ipsas (the nature of the cases is different between them) ^^^condicio duplex ejus disceptationis (the nature or manner of this dispute is two-fold)
+ omni condicioni genitali : dative of the object for which (Gildersleeve 356)
In the classical times the principal verbs in this construction are "esse", "dare", "ducere", "habere", "vertere", and a few others. Later Latin extends the usage to many other verbs.
--- Virtus neque datur dono atque accipitur (virtue is neither given nor taken as a gift) ^^^habere quaestui rem publicam turpe est (it is ugly to have the State for one's profit)^^^ remedio adhibere (apply something for a remedy)^^^auxilio mittere (send someone as a help)^^^locum insidiis circumspectare (seek for a place for the purpose of ambush)
+ genitalis : of or belonging to generation or birth, causing generation or birth, fruitful, generative, genital
+ praestituere, -stitui, -stitutum (prae + statuere) : to determine or appoint beforehand, to prescribe --- synonym "praefinio" (to determine in advance), "praescribo" (to prefix in writing ; to describe beforehand ; to determine in advance
--- diem praestituit operi faciundo (for the work to be done he has appointed the day beforehand) ^^^ tempus nobis (time is appointed beforehand for us) ^^^praetor numquam petitori praestituit, qua actione illum uti velit (praetor has never determined beforehand for the applicant what action he wanted him to practice)^^^ nulla praestituta die (without the date fixed beforehand)
+ statuere, statui, statutum :
(1. in physical sense)
to set up, set in the ground, erect
/ to plant --- vineam (plant vine) ^^^agro arborem (plant a tree in the ground)
/ to place, set or fix, set up or set forth things or persons --- ollam statuito cum aqua (place a jar containing water) ^^^ aciem arte statuerat (he set up an army with tactics) ^^^donum deae apud Antium statuitur (the house of a godess is set up near Anzio) ^^^^ in principiis statuit tabernaculum (in the headquarters he set up a tent) ^^^ patrem ejus a mortuis excitasses, statuisses ante oculos (you woke up his father from death, you let him stand before people's eyes) ^^^ captivos vinctos in medio statuit (he set the fettered captives in the middle)
/ to cause to stand firm, strengthen, support --- qui rem publicam certo animo adjuverit, statuerit (who helped and supported the State with firm mind)
//
(2. not in physical sense, meaning figuratively)
to establish by authority (of relations, duties, laws, etc.) --- hoc judicium sic exspectatur ut non unae rei statui, sed omnibus constitui putetur (this sentence is expected in such a way as it should be understood as established not for one matter, but for every matter) ^^^ quibus rebus cum pax statuta esset (when in that matter an agreement was going to be established) ^^^ terminos (establish a boundary)^^^ fines (establish a limit) ^^^ vectigal novum (establish the tax anew) ^^^ sic virtutis ut caelestium statuta magnitudo est (the size/power of the heavenly bodies was established)^^^ ad formandos animos statuendasque vitae leges (for the spirit to be formed, also the condition/rule/principle of life has to be extablished) ^^^ condicionem alicui (impose a condition upon someone)
+ praestitum --- praestare
+ praesto, -stiti or -stavi, -statum or -stitum : to keep, preserve, maintain --- pueri, quibus videmur praestare rem publicam debuisse (we should have preserved the State) ^^^omnes socios salvos praestare (to keep all our fellows safe) ^^^ praestat vitalem praeter sensum calidumque vaporem (maintain the vital heat and moisture in addition to the sense)
/ to give, offer, furnish, present --- quibus biduum praestabatur (to them a period of two days had been given) ^^^corpori omnia tamquam servo praestabantur (to the body everything was offered as it were as a servant)^^^ alicui summam pecuniae (give someone total sum of money) ---cervicem (give one's neck to ) ^^^ caput fulminibis (expose one's head to the thunderbolt)^^^ Hiberus praestat nomen terris (the river Ebro gives its name to the lands) ^^^anse ex se pullos atque plumam (goose gives us chicks and soft feathers) ^^^sententiam praestaret (give one's vote)^^^ terga hosti (offer = turn one's back to the enemy) ^^^^voluptatem (offer enjoyment, give pleasure)
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Re: omni condicioni genitali praestitutum est

Postby adrianus » Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:49 pm

Sic in sermones anglicos converto
Then after [instead of "when"] two different and distinct things initially, clay and breath, had brought together a single human being, both the blended substances now mingled their own seeds also into one and thence transmitted to the [human] race the form for propagation, so that even now two things, granted diverse [but] also united, flow out together, and together, having seeped into their own [/a suitable] furrow and field [more obviously sexual in Latin, I think // clarior latinè est sensus sexualis, ut opinor], they produce a human being in whom is contained his own seed in turn according to race, as [it—impersonaliter] is predetermined for every generative partner.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: omni condicioni genitali praestitutum est

Postby Junya » Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:35 am

Hi, Adrianus.

in general my translation and yours are the same, except for that problematic last clause.

About this last clause "sicut omni condicioni genitali praestitutum est",
you render it as
as is predetermined for every generative partner

Why do you translate "condicio" as "partner" ?
I remember "condicio" has a meaning "marriage", and I wonder if this meaning and your "partner" has a relation.

And do you feel no problem in your translation ?
I mean, is there no vague part for you there, no incoherency in the whole sentence ? Is the whole sentence clear and transparent ?
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Re: omni condicioni genitali praestitutum est

Postby adrianus » Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:44 am

Junya wrote:Why do you translate "condicio" as "partner" ?
I remember "condicio" has a meaning "marriage", and I wonder if this meaning and your "partner" has a relation.

They do. // Habent.
L&S wrote:B. Esp., a marriage, match; sometimes, by meton., = the person married (freq. and class.).

Or just say "marriage" or "match".
Aliter sic anglicè vertas: nuptiae, connubium.
Junya wrote:And do you feel no problem in your translation ?
I mean, is there no vague part for you there, no incoherency in the whole sentence ? Is the whole sentence clear and transparent ?

I found the Latin difficult but I'm happy with my translation because it makes sense to me.
Difficile esse latinum habui at contentum translatio me facit quod clara ea mihi videtur.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: omni condicioni genitali praestitutum est

Postby Junya » Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:14 pm

Then, could you tell me what title or paraphrasing you would give to this section ?
(I gave a title "The slime (the seed of body) and the heat (the seed of soul) are handed down in a blended condition (i.e. as a unit)".

I'm sorry for inquiring persistently. :(
I hope you are enjoying answering.


You translated
and thence transmitted to the [human] race the form for propagation

And I
and in that way (i.e. with the both blended) the preparational pattern for the procreation of human being was established

And I understand they mean the same.
But tell me please what do you think "the form for propagation" is (in mine "the preparational pattern for the procreation").
I understand that "form" means, a blended condition of slime and heat (in yours "clay" and "breath"), and a manner in which they are handed down in the blended condition.



---------------------------------------------
Another question.

If you are tired of answering also to this question, then don't answer this time. I will re-question tomorrow.


sicut omni condicioni genitali praestitutum est
as [it—impersonaliter] is predetermined for every generative partner.


"The generative partner" would mean "the husband".
But somehow, in spite of knowing that "condicio" could mean so, I feel a hesitation to fit that meaning to this "omni condicioni genitali".
Are you full sure the phrase "condicio genitalis" must mean "the husband" (also "the wife") ?
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Re: omni condicioni genitali praestitutum est

Postby adrianus » Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:59 pm

En alia versio anglica: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/tertullian10.html

Quomodo igitur animal conceptum? Sic incipitur capitulum vicesimum septimum tractati Tertulliani De Anima nomine. Aptum est ut titulum, meâ sententiâ. Aliter, "Animam et Carnem Simul Concipi" est titulum huic libro donatum. Non dulciter anglicè hîc sonat "slime" vocabulum. "Clay" vocabulum anglicum pro limo scribas.

"How is a living thing conceived?" is how chapter 27 starts in Tertullian's De Anima, and it's a suitable title. Otherwise, you have "Body and Soul Simultaneously Conceived" as a title give to this part. "Slime" doesn't sound quite right in English here. Clay is better here for "limus" ("mud").

Junya wrote:I understand that "form" means, a blended condition of slime and heat (in yours "clay" and "breath"), and a manner in which they are handed down in the blended condition.

That's fine. // Bonum est.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: omni condicioni genitali praestitutum est

Postby Junya » Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:59 am

Oh, there was a translation on the net.



Yesterday, I questioned
Then, could you tell me what title or paraphrasing you would give to this section ?
(I gave a title "The slime (the seed of body) and the heat (the seed of soul) are handed down in a blended condition (i.e. as a unit)".


What I meant is "Could you tell me what title or paraphrasing you would give to the passage I translated and pasted here ?".



-----------------------
In Ireland, which do you use, Fahrenheit or Celsius, in expressing the degree of temeperature ?
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Re: omni condicioni genitali praestitutum est

Postby adrianus » Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:09 pm

Junya wrote:"Could you tell me what title or paraphrasing you would give to the passage I translated and pasted here ?"
I like the first sentence of this chapter as a title: Quomodo igitur animal conceptum? You also have "Corpus animamque simul concipi."
Prima capituli sententia pro titulo amo. Etiam hoc: "Corpus animamque simul concipi"

Junya wrote:In Ireland, which do you use, Fahrenheit or Celsius, in expressing the degree of temeperature ?

Both. Children, though, will just use Celsius.
Et fahrenheitianis et celsianis gradibus. Solùm autem celsianis cum pueris.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: omni condicioni genitali praestitutum est

Postby rmansker » Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:14 pm

omni condicioni genitali praestitutum est cum igitur in primordio duo diuersa atque diuisa, limus et flatus, unum hominem coegissent


My translation:
"it is predetermined to the nature of every birth that (the) two (are) separate and apart in the beginning and therefore mud and breath come together as one person"

omni - adj. dative singular "all, every, everything"
condicioni - dative singular "condition, nature"
genitali - dative singular "nuptual, of birth, of enjoyment"
praestitutum - 3rd person plural, passive perfect "prescribed, determined beforehand" [Might be deponent, didn't check that...]
primordio - dative (or ablative) singular "commencement, a beginning"
duo - "two, each, both"
diuersa - [diversa] nominative singular "separate, individually"
diuisa - [divisa] nominative singular "apart, a dividing"
limus - nominative singular "slime, mud, filth, pollution"
flatus - nominative singular "breath, breeze"
hominem - accusative singular "man, person"
coegissent - pluperfect 3rd person plural "to come together"

I haven't slept in 48 hours so I'm sorry if I'm completely off my rocker...

R. Mansker
~~~I will apologize now for being a Yank. Please do not let me bad English grammar and spelling deter you from talking to me :D ~~~
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Re: omni condicioni genitali praestitutum est

Postby Junya » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:14 am

Hi, rmansker.
Do you find this passage easy ?
I have been reading this De ANIMA by Tertullianus for over a year and a half.
At first, it was too difficult for me. I didn't understand one sentence accurately.
The way I consulted dictionary was of no use in reading it. (It had been actually ok with the medieval texts which I had been reading till then, though.)
So I have been trying to improve the way I consult the dictionary. (The VOCABULARY LIST above is the result.)
It is only recently that I began to understand the text in a better way.


By the way, you wrongly quoted the text. It is not written "omni condicioni genitali praestitutum est cum igitur in primordio duo diuersa atque diuisa, limus et flatus, unum hominem coegissent".
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Re: omni condicioni genitali praestitutum est

Postby Junya » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:37 am

Hi Adrianus. Thank you for your answers. Today I will consult the dictionary further and examine the passage again.


It is November. How is the temperature over there ? Is it already snowing ?
In Japan we use Celsius. Where I live, it is 15 to 19 degrees in the daytime, a rather mild temperature bearable with only sweatshirt.
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Re: omni condicioni genitali praestitutum est

Postby adrianus » Sat Nov 05, 2011 12:27 pm

Temperatura hîc, Junya, inter quattuor et undecim gradus celsianos est, at exeunte hebdomade ad inter unum et duos gradus eae casurum, ut credunt. Aliquibus locis altis mox quidem forsit ninget.

The temperature here is between 4 and 11 Celsius, Junya, but over the weekend it is expected to drop to 1 or 2. It may snow, true enough, in some high parts soon, perhaps.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: omni condicioni genitali praestitutum est

Postby Junya » Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:28 pm

Oh, Ireland sounds a very cold place. 4 to 11 degrees Celsius are December's temperature here. (My place is near the areas which had that disaster in March.)
I have a book that has pictures of Irish tombstones with Celtic cross. Those pictures are all green, taken in summer, so I have never imagined Ireland in cold seasons.

The book also had medieval Latin manuscripts with elaborate pictures, with Celtic motif of intertwined ropes. I guess Ireland has a lot of medieval Latin things. It's nice.
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Re: omni condicioni genitali praestitutum est

Postby adrianus » Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:01 pm

Yes, many parts of Ireland are nice and Irish monks played an important part in the transmission of Latin learning in Europe from the 6th to the 10th century.

Ita. Multi loci Hiberniae dulces sunt et magni momenti erant monachi hibernici intra fines Europaeae saeculos inter sextum et decimum ad latinitatem transmittendam.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: omni condicioni genitali praestitutum est

Postby adrianus » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:00 am

Junya wrote:My place is near the areas which had that disaster in March.

That was terrible. How far are you from the affected areas?
Rem terribilem! Quatenùs es à locis impactis?
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: omni condicioni genitali praestitutum est

Postby Junya » Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:43 am

Thank you for caring about me ! :)

I don't know how far it is from here to the disastered areas, (200 km ?)
but the areas that had the earthquake and tsunami is called Tohoku (meaning the "North-East" part of Japan) and my prefecture is included in it.
The earthquake was terrible and tsunami was had in the parts of Tohoku that face Pacific ocean,
while oppositely, the place where I live faces China and Korea, and here the earthquake was weak, and there was no tsunami.
Junya
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