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Is this an exclamatory sentence?

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Is this an exclamatory sentence?

Postby Junya » Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:45 pm

Hi.


quis rex, quae curia, quale palatium,
quae pax, quae requies, quod illud gaudium,
huius participes exponant gloriam,
si quantum sentiunt, possint exprimere.



This is a part from a medieval chant. I am unsure if this is an exclamatory sentence.

In a dictionary, it is explained that "qui, quae, quod" as an interrogative adjective has an exclamatory meaning "what a....!". Likewise with "qualis, quale", "how....!". But with "quis, quid" there is no such explanation there.


Or, these "quis rex, quae curia,....." are the object clause of "exprimere" ? (I don't think this "exprimere" has anything to do with those, though.----"quantum sentiunt" is as it were the object of it.)
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Re: Is this an exclamatory sentence?

Postby adrianus » Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:48 pm

They are just ordinary questions, I think, Junya.
Meâ mente, Junya, sunt quaestiones simplices.
"Who [is] the king, what [is] the court, what [is] the palace,
what [is] the peace, what [is] the relief, what [is] that joy [mentioned earlier],
whose sharers [/with whom those involved] can demonstrate/tell about the glory,
if they felt so much, [or] could express [so much]?"
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Is this an exclamatory sentence?

Postby Junya » Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:07 pm

Hi Adrianus ! :D
I'm glad you are there.

Thanks for the advice, but I am still vague with your explanation. :?

Although I am now unsure about the construction of this sentence, I have a guess.

Yesterday, I understood
"huius participes exponant gloriam, si quantum sentiunt, possint exprimere"
as, "the participants would glory (express how glorious they are), if they could express as much as they are thinking".

But today, I got this guess:
"si quantum sentiunt, possint exprimere quis est rex, quae est curia, quale est palatium......"
"if they could describe who is the king, of what kind is the curia, what is the palatium like......as much as they know."

What do you think?
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Re: Is this an exclamatory sentence?

Postby adrianus » Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:38 pm

"Who [is] the King...?
Is there a King, is there a court, is there a palace, is there peace or rest or that joy experienced by anyone, who, if they felt as much [as those in the coming Kingdom of Jerusalem must feel] could describe that glory, [or] would be able to express it?"

Id est, "the Glory of the Kingdom of Jerusalem to come cannot compare to any existing kingdom" // incomparabilis est gloria Jerusalem [vel Hierosolymae] regni venturi.

I think // ut suspicor
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Is this an exclamatory sentence?

Postby Junya » Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:18 pm

Adrianus, I can't see the agreement between the construction of the Latin sentence and the construction of your translation. I am still unsure. I understand the general meaning you gave from a larger perspective. But I want to translate with more minute accuracy.
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Re: Is this an exclamatory sentence?

Postby adrianus » Tue Aug 16, 2011 7:33 pm

Junya wrote:But I want to translate with more minute accuracy.

Me paenitet, junya, sed jam sic verbatim in sermones anglicos reddidi, id mihi visum est, per sequens. (Forsit alius satiùs illustrabit.)

Sorry, Junya, but I thought that what I gave originally was pretty literal. Another may be able to translate literally in a better way.
adrianus wrote:"Who [is] the king, what [is] the court, what [is] the palace,
what [is] the peace, what [is] the relief, what [is] that joy [mentioned earlier],
whose sharers [/with whom those involved] can demonstrate/tell about the glory,
if they felt so much, [or] could express [so much]?"


You understand, don't you, that I am suggesting the verb "is/est" is to be understood.
Nonnè intellegis "est" verbum deficere?
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Is this an exclamatory sentence?

Postby Junya » Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:57 am

Hi Adrianus,

Where I am unsure about your translation is this part:

whose sharers [/with whom those involved] can demonstrate/tell about the glory,
if they felt so much, [or] could express [so much]?"


for

huius participes exponant gloriam,
si quantum sentiunt, possint exprimere.



And here I am confused about a few points.
1. you translate the "huius" as the relative "whose". But "huius" is a demonstrative. Could you explain why you translate so ?
2. you don't translate out the subject of "exponant" and "possint exprimere", which makes it very hard for me to understand the translated sentence.
3. I don't understand the insertion of "or" (before "could express......")
4. I can't grasp the whole meaning of your translation. (I understand the general meaning of the sentence you gave, but I don't understand this literal translation at all.)


I'm sorry I am giving too many questions. Please take time. You can answer only one at a time. I'm not hurrying.

And, I have got my own reading, which I will present to you after you finish the above questions.
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Re: Is this an exclamatory sentence?

Postby adrianus » Wed Aug 17, 2011 9:04 pm

Junya wrote:1. you translate the "huius" as the relative "whose". But "huius" is a demonstrative. Could you explain why you translate so ?

"huius" = "of this [thing] just mentioned" or "of that [thing] just mentioned" so, in my mind, "whose" fits the bill.
Aptum est anglicè "whose", id midi videtur, pro "illius rei jam citatae"
Junya wrote:2. you don't translate out the subject of "exponant" and "possint exprimere", which makes it very hard for me to understand the translated sentence.

"Sharers" vel "participants" vel "those involved" subjectum est, nisi fallor.
Junya wrote:3. I don't understand the insertion of "or" (before "could express......")

it is an "or" inclusive // "vel" conjunctio significatur:
"the participants can tell about the glory, the participants could express..."
Junya wrote:And, I have got my own reading, which I will present to you after you finish the above questions.
That will be good.
Certatìm exspecto.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Is this an exclamatory sentence?

Postby Junya » Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:41 pm

Thank you Adrianus. :o There still remain vague points, but today, I show my reading.

If I re-arrange the sentence to make it easy to understand my way of reading, it is like this.

"si quantum sentiunt, possint exprimere
quis rex, quae curia, quale palatium,
quae pax, quae requies, quod illud gaudium,
huius participes exponant gloriam."



If they could describe, as much as they see and know ,
who is the king (there in Jerusalem), what is the church like (there), what is the temple like (there),
how good the state of peace (there) is, how nice the rest (there) is, and how great that rejoice is (there),
the participants of the rejoice there would express praises (on the greatness of the city) and their glorious sentiment.
(though they won't be able to describe them enough because of the too much greatness of what they see and know..........just as Adrianus explained for me)
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Re: Is this an exclamatory sentence?

Postby adrianus » Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:24 pm

En et à Johanne Mason Neale redditum:
And here's another translation:

http://www.oremus.org/hymnal/o/o694.html wrote:What are the Monarch, his court and his throne?
What are the peace and the joy that they own?
O that the blest ones, who in it have share,
all that they feel could as fully declare!
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Is this an exclamatory sentence?

Postby Junya » Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:56 pm

quis rex, quae curia, quale palatium,
quae pax, quae requies, quod illud gaudium,
huius participes exponant gloriam,
si quantum sentiunt, possint exprimere.


Adrianus,
Is this translator taking the "si" as the "exclamatory si", not the "conditional si"?
He translates "O that.....".

I have not studied the "exclamatory si". If this is the exclam,atory use of "si", then I will check the Gildersleeve. So tell me if it is so, and if you agree with that translator.
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Re: Is this an exclamatory sentence?

Postby adrianus » Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:23 pm

"Exclamatory si" hoc nomen ignoro // I never heard of that term.

I don't agree or disagree with his translation, Junya. He's not translating word for word. I admire it and think it very good and faithful. He's probably much better at Latin than I am.

Nec consentio nec dissentio viro qui verbatìm non vertit, sed admiror et fidelem bonamque habeo illam versionem. Latinitas illius viris eam meam superat, non dubito.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Is this an exclamatory sentence?

Postby Junya » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:52 pm

quis rex, quae curia, quale palatium,
quae pax, quae requies, quod illud gaudium,
huius participes exponant gloriam,
si quantum sentiunt, possint exprimere.



Sorry, not "exclamatory si", but correctly "si of wishes".
Like

O mihi praeteritos referat si Iuppiter annos


O if Jupiter brought back the past years to me!
"O" can be omitted in this construction, according to Gildersleeve.

As I examine it, the "si" clause in this sentence could be of "si of wishes".


-----------------------------------------------
What is most perplexing for me in this sentence is that there is not a ! (exclamation mark) nor ? (question mark) for the part
"quis rex, quae curia, quale palatium,
quae pax, quae requies, quod illud gaudium,".

Can you explain it ?
To solve this problem, I rendered this part as the "indirect interrogative clauses" of exprimere.

(exprimere quis rex, quae curia, quale palatium,
quae pax, quae requies, quod illud gaudium)


As I told you, I want to be as scrupulously accurate as possible in reading.
I don' want to make a fake translation, which translators often make when they don't really understand the original text's meaning and grammatical construction.
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Re: Is this an exclamatory sentence?

Postby adrianus » Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:10 pm

Junya wrote:What is most perplexing for me in this sentence is that there is not a ! (exclamation mark) nor ? (question mark)


I think you are right to be scrupulous. But these are modern signs and couldn't be in the original, and a copy might not exist in Abelard's hand. Even an editor's modern usage of commas can affect how you interpret the sentence.
Some translations can be plainly incorrect; some can be excellent but differ. I don't say my attempt at translating is correct but it's my honest attempt. Also, language usage (of the original and of the language you're translating into) varies between groups and over time,—you can suggest that in your translation.

Laudandus qui examinatè labores. At moderna sunt haec signa, chirographum Abaelardi auctoris pristinum non attingentia, qui chirographus certim jam longè abitus est. Et virgularum quidem usus a redactore impositus mutat sensum, vel mutare potest. Meam versionem rectam esse non clamo at conatum honestum profero. Planè sunt versionum defectivae; sunt quoque bonae quae autem inter se mutant. Non minùs variat inter greges aevaque lingua in quam vertis,—quam rem per opus tuum exprimere potes.

Junya wrote: I rendered this part as the "indirect interrogative clauses" of exprimere

Great idea. // Felicem notionem!
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Is this an exclamatory sentence?

Postby Junya » Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:01 pm

Oh, in the medieval writing (and in Roman time) there were not the question mark and the exclamation mark ? (and even the comma!)
Really ?
Thank you for the information ! :D
That information is a great one for me. I have never known it.
When did you know that, Adrianus ?
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Re: Is this an exclamatory sentence?

Postby adrianus » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:01 pm

I know that because I look at manuscripts,—images and the real thing,—and punctuation and abbreviations interest me,—and commas did exist, just how they are used varies.
Id scio quòd chirographa nosco et per imagines et vera,—quidem interpunctio abbreviatioque mihi cura sunt. Exstant autem virgulae cuius usus admodùm variat.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Is this an exclamatory sentence?

Postby Junya » Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:02 pm

Thank you Adrianus.
Knowing that there were originally no question marks and exclamation marks, the way I look at the text has changed.
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Re: Is this an exclamatory sentence?

Postby adrianus » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:55 pm

But your original idea about an indirect question ["quis sit"] remains a good one.
At bonum manet quod dixisti de quaestione obliquâ.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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