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Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

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Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:56 am

Good afternoon,

are the following translations of ISTE in declension correct? thank you so much

1. NOM: Your dog is happy
2. GEN: John, your dog is happy
3. DAT: John, give this to your dog
4. ACC: John, there is your dog
5 ABL: John, where is your dog?

Are these correct?

thank you so much
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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby Sinister Petrus » Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:28 pm

blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:Good afternoon,

are the following translations of ISTE in declension correct? thank you so much

1. NOM: Your dog is happy
2. GEN: John, your dog is happy
3. DAT: John, give this to your dog
4. ACC: John, there is your dog
5 ABL: John, where is your dog?

Are these correct?

thank you so much


Cur istud verbum te tam multum vexat? Iterum iterumque nos ista de re rogas. Rogandum autem est tibi usque intellegis istud. :shock:

As before, don't mix iste, ista, istud up with tuus, tua, tuum. They aren't the same. Tuus, tua, tuum indicates possession independent of location. Iste, ista, istud indicates location independent of possession. Hic, haec, hoc is no more a synonym of meus, mea, meum than iste is of tuus.

Second, your understanding of Latin case as used in English is rather loose. If you are learning Latin, try formulating your example sentences in Latin (and cut out the middleman of English as it isn't very structurally similar to Latin. Of course if what you want to learn is English, that's another matter).

You wrote:
Gen: John, your dog is happy. In Latin that renders as (presuming iste=your, which it doesn't):
Iohannis, iste canis est laetus.

You want something more like:
Gen: Your dog's food smells.
Istius canis cibus putet.
(And for clarity: the dog is near you. He isn't necessarily yours.)

Acc: John, there is your dog. In somewhat kludgy Latin to emphasize the near-to-you-ness of the dog:
Iohannis, istic est iste canis.

You want:
Acc: I see your dog.
Istum canem video.

Abl: John, where is your dog?
Iohannes, ubi est iste canis?
Of course, the answer to this question is likely Ablative case.

You want:
Abl: My food is in your dog.
Meus cibus est in isto cane.
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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:13 am

i have one more question.

does ISTE function in the nominative?

could you please give an example?

thank you so much



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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby Sinister Petrus » Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:41 am

Iste canis est mihi.

That dog by you is mine.
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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:33 am

good afternoon,

how do you know when you use ISTE if it is 'your dog' (as in my dog)
versus 'your dog' as in someone elses dog. there are 6 persons in
language (I, you, he/she/it, we, you, them). how do you know
which one is being refered to?

thank you so much
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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby adrianus » Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:11 pm

blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote: there are 6 persons in
language (I, you, he/she/it, we, you, them). how do you know
which one is being refered to?

When you say "iste canis", THAT dog is being referred to. Whether it's mine, yours, his, hers, ours or theirs only the context can reveal if at all.

Cum iste canis dicitur, ISTUM canem res spectat. An mihi, tibi, ei, nobis, vobis, eis sit, contextus solus ostendat, si potest.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby Sinister Petrus » Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:05 am

blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:good afternoon,

how do you know when you use ISTE if it is 'your dog' (as in my dog)
versus 'your dog' as in someone elses dog. there are 6 persons in
language (I, you, he/she/it, we, you, them). how do you know
which one is being refered to?

thank you so much


It doesn't matter. ISTE is the one over by 2nd person, whether it belongs to 2nd person or not. Hence:

Iste canis est mihi.

The dog by you is mine.
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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:32 am

Sinister Petrus wrote:It doesn't matter. ISTE is the one over by 2nd person, whether it belongs to 2nd person or not. Hence:

Iste canis est mihi.

The dog by you is mine.



good day,

i understand. it doesnt matter whose dog it is. it is just the fact that the dog
is by you.

can you say

ISTE CANIS SUNT ME

the dog by them is mine

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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby adrianus » Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:16 am

blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:
Sinister Petrus wrote:it doesnt matter whose dog it is. it is just the fact that the dog
is by you.

can you say

ISTE CANIS SUNT ME

the dog by them is mine

ISTE CANIS SUNT ME means this // sic traditur: "THAT DOG ARE ME (?accusative!)"
MIHI EST ISTE CANIS PROPE EOS = "That dog [that we talked about already, or that you are familiar with either because we talked about it earlier or because it's your dog or you claim it to be yours or because you're looking after it for someone else or training it for someone else or because you stole it or rescued it or it otherwise entered into your possession, none of which we can know exactly unless the context tells us // de quo jam communicavimus, vel quem novisti cùm aut jam communicaverimus aut tibi sit aut eum tibi esse clames aut ei serves aut eum alumneris aut ademeris aut subveneris aut aliter possederis,—nullum harum rerum cognosci potest nisi contextus indicet] by them is mine"
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Sat Aug 27, 2011 6:48 am

adrianus wrote:
blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:
Sinister Petrus wrote:MIHI EST ISTE CANIS PROPE EOS = "That dog by them is mine"



good day,

Correct uses of ISTE:

that dog by me is mine
that dog by you is mine
that dog by him/her is mine
that dog by it is mine
that dog by us is mine
that dog by them is mine



could you further use ITSE to say 'that dog by us is theres'
VOS EST ISTE CANIS PROPE EOS

Further, what would 'ISTE CANIS EST TIBI' mean? (or 'ISTE CANIS EST NOBIS')



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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby adrianus » Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:19 pm

As said already above, iste could conceivably refer to a dog that is "theirs":
Ut jam dictum est, benè possibile est iste pronomen quendam canem "ab eis" possessum spectare:
adrianus wrote:When you say "iste canis", THAT dog is being referred to. Whether it's mine, yours, his, hers, ours or theirs only the context can reveal if at all.

Cum iste canis dicitur, ISTUM canem res spectat. An mihi, tibi, ei, nobis, vobis, eis sit, contextus solus ostendat, si potest.

So if you wanted to use ISTE in this sentence while at the same time specifying that "they" own it, "that dog by us is theirs", you could say this, I believe:
Ergo, ut suppono, si velis quidem latinè ità dicere cum herus simul definiatur, possis:

"Eis est iste canis prope nos".
= "that dog by us is theirs"

What you wrote/quod scripsisti, VOS EST ISTE CANIS PROPE EOS, means in English/anglicè significat "THAT DOG BY THEM IS YOU (plural/pluraliter)"


"Iste canis est tibi" = "That dog is yours"
"Iste canis est nobis" = "That dog is ours"
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby MatthaeusLatinus » Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:40 am

adrianus wrote:possibile est


Melius eſt "fieri poteſt" ſcribere.
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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby adrianus » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:25 am

Ut dicis, si semper classicè scribas. Sic semper facere non mihi refert qui et classicè et post-classicè scribere quire velim (etsi neutro modo adhùc facundè facere possum).

As you say, to write classically. Not that I think one must all the time, because I'm keen on being able to write both ways (though I'm capable of doing neither very well at present).
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:28 am

adrianus wrote:THAT dog is being referred to. Whether it's mine, yours, his, hers, ours or theirs only the context can reveal if at all.


that dog by me...
that dog by you...
that dog by him/her...
that dog by it...
that dog by us...
that dog by them...


adrianus wrote:only the context can reveal if at all.
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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:30 am

blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:
adrianus wrote:THAT dog is being referred to. Whether it's mine, yours, his, hers, ours or theirs only the context can reveal if at all.


that dog by me... (ISTE CANIS SUM)
that dog by you...(ISTE CANIS ES)
that dog by him/her...(ISTE CANIS EST)
that dog by it...(ISTE CANIS SUMUS)
that dog by us...(ISTE CANIS ESTIS)
that dog by them...(ISTE CANIS SUNT)


adrianus wrote:only the context can reveal if at all.



Also,

Iste canis est vobis" = "That dog is theres"


thank you so much
have a good day

btwcan
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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby adrianus » Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:44 pm

blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:Iste canis est vobis" = "That dog is theres"

"Iste canis est vobis" = "That dog is yours", not // non "That dog is theirs"
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:57 pm

good day,

is the following correct?


that dog by me... (ISTE CANIS SUM)
that dog by it...(ISTE CANIS SUMUS)



thank you so much.
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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby adrianus » Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:39 am

Are you kidding, blutoonwithcarrotandnail?
Num intentus es, canorcaerulecarotâclavoque?
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby MatthaeusLatinus » Fri Sep 02, 2011 8:49 pm

Puto eum ſine cauſa ſpammare.
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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby Sinister Petrus » Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:54 am

MatthaeusLatinus wrote:Puto eum ſine cauſa ſpammare.


Spammare. Hahahae! Spammabat sine causa an sine fine?
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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby MatthaeusLatinus » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:19 pm

Et ſine cauſa et ſine fine. Barbarus miſer ineptus!
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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby adrianus » Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:31 am

You can never be certain. It might be a joke; it might not be. I just asked. Either way, so what! Leave the door open.
Incertum est a priori an intentus an facetus sit. Ostensuì rogavi. Nihil refert quomodo sit. Januam apertam relinquite.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:59 pm

good day,

not to belabor the point. i seem to have found from other sources
that the following are correct if you do not have context:

ISTE CANIS EST: it is that dog
ISTIUS CANIS EST: this is that dog


I was told that the following combinations are meaningless:
ISTE CANIS SUM
ISTO CANIS EST

let me ask another question

does ISTUM CANIS EST mean: "this dog of yours"

thank you so much
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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby MatthaeusLatinus » Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:27 am

how many times do you need this explained?? :roll:
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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby adrianus » Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:35 pm

blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:does ISTUM CANIS EST mean: "this dog of yours"

No. The verb "est" ("it is") has been left out. "Istum" doesn't agree with "canis". "Istum" is accusative. "Canis" is nominative.

Minimé. "Est" verbum omittitur. "Istum" pronomen accusativo casu cum "canis" nomine nominativo non concurrit.

Cave tibi cane muto, aquâ silente. // Watch out for quiet dogs and still water.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:01 am

blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:good day,

ISTE CANIS EST: it is that dog
ISTIUS CANIS EST: this is that dog


thank you so much



ISTE CANIS EST
ISTIUS CANIS EST
ISTI CANI EST
ISTUM CANEM EST
ISTO CANE EST

stupid me. i havent been studying lately. sorry

are these right?

thanks
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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby adrianus » Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:56 am

blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:ISTE CANIS EST
ISTIUS CANIS EST
ISTI CANI EST
ISTUM CANEM EST
ISTO CANE EST
...are these right?
.
Only the first is a sentence: ISTE CANIS EST. The words say "It is that dog" and/or "That is the dog".
The rest are just words where the pronoun and nouns do agree, it is true, but they don't make sensible sentences, because the verb "est" ("[it] is") needs the nominative only, not those other cases.

I though of a way in which some of them could make sense. Some of them could make sense as answers to questions. For example, "istius canis est" means "it is of that dog", i.e., "it belongs to that dog" and "it is in the nature of that dog", and "Isti cani est" means "It is to that dog" or "It belongs to that dog" or "it is for that dog", and "isto cane est" means "It is by that dog" or "It is from that dog". So only "Istum canem est" is ungrammatical and meaningless.

Prima sola est sententia, ISTE CANIS EST, in quâ iste canis subjectum est. Sententiae non sunt aliae. Verum est nomen et pronomen inter se congruere, at nominativo casui solo verbum, scilicet est, servit.

Quasdam ex istis sanas esse, id modò in mentem venit, cum responsa ad quaestiones. Solùm "istum canem est" manet sine sensu et soloecismus.
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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:33 am

ISTIUS VIRI CANIS EST
this dog is your dog

(the object owned follows the person who owns it: pila pueri, poculum domini, gladius viri,
pillum relgionis - VIRI CANIS: the man owns the dog)

CANIS CANIS CANI CANEM CANE
VIR VIRI VIRO VIRUM VIRO

the second in each of the above is the genitive which is being
used in the sentence 'ISTIUS CANIS VIRI EST'

CANIS and VIRI agree first more importantly than the agreement with ISTIUS.
Next ISTIUS agrees with CANIS.

just a hunch but ISTE is a demonstrative and should replace the noun and
start the sentence that way. it should probably replace the noun dog
but ISTE is possibly a different kind of demonstrative since it implies
'your...' (example: john owns the dog. it belongs to him.)

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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby adrianus » Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:59 pm

Sounds right to me. // Rectè dicis, id mihi videtur.
blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:but ISTE is possibly a different kind of demonstrative since it implies
'your...' (example: john owns the dog. it belongs to him.)

...but I think you should forget about "mine/his/hers/theirs/yours" or "by me, by you, etc" in "iste" and choose instead to think of "iste" meaning "yonder" (as A&G suggest) or "that (referred to)"
...at hanc sententiam negligas, ut opinor: sensus mei/tui/eius/nostris/vestris/eorum pronominum, non minùs "prope me, prope te" et sensus sequentes, in "iste" contineri. Immò anglicè "yonder" (secundum A&G) vel "that (referred to)" substituas.
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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:59 pm

ISTE AMICUS TIBI NON ERIT FIDUS, QUOD IS SIBI NO EST FIDUS

your friend (over yonder - adding emphasis not pointing out something
mentioned already unless it is in context) is not going to be faithful because
'something' is not faithful (faith is not faithful?)




comments?

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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby adrianus » Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:28 pm

Once again, "iste" means "that": "That friend will not be faithful to you..."
Iterum dico "iste" anglicè "that" significare.

Ask yourself what "is" means and then what "sibi" means. Then put those words into the translation.
Tibi roges quid significet "is", quid significet "sibi". Tunc in sententiam inseras.
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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:24 pm

IS means 'he'
'that friend will not be faithful to you because he is faithless'

IS is the demonstrative and SIBI is refering to it again?
for some reason i do not think that it is the same person doing the action

Im not sure but is it: SUI SIBI SE/SESE SE/SESE

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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby adrianus » Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:45 pm

blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:IS means 'he'
'that friend will not be faithful to you because he is faithless'

IS is the demonstrative and SIBI is refering to it again?
for some reason i do not think that it is the same person doing the action

Almost there // Paenè confectum: sibi (dativo casu) = "to himself"
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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:52 am

adrianus wrote:
I though of a way in which some of them could make sense. Some of them could make sense as answers to questions. For example, "istius canis est" means "it is of that dog", i.e., "it belongs to that dog" and "it is in the nature of that dog", and "Isti cani est" means "It is to that dog" or "It belongs to that dog" or "it is for that dog", and "isto cane est" means "It is by that dog" or "It is from that dog". So only "Istum canem est" is ungrammatical and meaningless.



would you say that this holds true for all demonstratives used in the same fashion?

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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby adrianus » Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:09 pm

Ità dicam.
I would say so.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:54 am

This may sound alittle ridiculous but i think it is an excellent
question

The simplest form of a sentence is a noun and a verb (VIR CURRIT)
If a demonstrative replaces a noun does this imply that sometimes
according to context a single demonstrative may function with a single
verbs but other times not

there are no pronouns in roman/latin. in english there are.
demonstratives are completely different animals

comments?

thank you so much
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blutoonwithcarrotandnail
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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby Grochojad » Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:19 am

blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:This may sound alittle ridiculous


blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:there are no pronouns in roman/latin. in english there are.


It does sound ridiculous.
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Re: Examples of ISTE used thru nom to abl

Postby adrianus » Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:47 pm

blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:The simplest form of a sentence is a noun and a verb (VIR CURRIT)

Currit ("he/she/it runs") is a simpler sentence in Latin.
"Currit" verbum simplicior sententia est.

Grochojad is right, BTW.
Rectus obiter Grochojad

And the command "run" is a simpler English sentence.
Et jussum anglicum "run" simplicior sententia est.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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