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ISTE in overlap with possesive adjectives and demonstratives

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ISTE in overlap with possesive adjectives and demonstratives

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:53 pm

Good day,

What is the difference between,

MEUS OCULUS
SUUS OCULUS
and
ISTE OCULUS

thank you so much,

bt
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Re: ISTE in overlap with possesive adjectives and demonstrat

Postby adrianus » Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:12 pm

Salve canorcaerulecarotâclavoque

The difference is "MEUS" means "my", "SUUS" means "his/her own" and ISTE means "that"
Discrimina sunt haec: "me attingens" significat "meus" pronomen; "se attingens" "suus"; "is istòc attingens" "iste".
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: ISTE in overlap with possesive adjectives and demonstrat

Postby Sinister Petrus » Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:23 pm

blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:Good day,

What is the difference between,

MEUS OCULUS
SUUS OCULUS
and
ISTE OCULUS

thank you so much,

bt


1. meus oculus = oculus est mihi / oculum habeo
2. suus oculus = subiectum sententiae oculum habet
3. iste oculus = oculus non est tibi, sed prope te.

The first is easy. My eye. The second is too. His/her/its eye. The key is that "suus" refers to the subject of the sentence (aka reflexive). Since "suus oculus" is a nominative form, you likely would see this in some sort of dependent clause or another--though not necessarily. I can't come up with an example of that usage off the top of my head—you could probably find uses of this sort in the Vulgate without too much effort.

The third is somewhat different. Iste, ista, istud is a demonstrative pronoun. Hic, haec, hoc maps to the English this, and ille, illa, illud maps to that. But we don't really have a nice way of expressing iste in English. In the strictest sense, so far as my reading leads me to understand, it means "that one near you". It is almost as if the three demonstratives (hic, iste, ille) map to the three persons of the verb—though for specifying an object not naming the actor of the verb. It is also used in court situations to refer to the other side of the case and is frequently pejorative (Cicero, Cat. 2, 7: “…iste otii et pacis hostis…").
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Re: ISTE in overlap with possesive adjectives and demonstrat

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:41 pm

good afternoon,
good day,

MEUS OCULUS
SUUS OCULUS
and
ISTE OCULUS


If you use ISTE in a sentence do you have to see
MEUS or SUUS in the same sentence?

thank you so much,

bt
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Re: ISTE in overlap with possesive adjectives and demonstrat

Postby adrianus » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:20 pm

No, you don't.
Ista videri (meus suus enim) non oportet.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: ISTE in overlap with possesive adjectives and demonstrat

Postby adrianus » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:51 pm

Sinister Petrus wrote:3. iste oculus = oculus non est tibi, sed prope te.

I know what you mean. It could be an eye near you and the context may mean that but, strictly speaking, it could equally be your own eye (the other of the other), if you (the other) referred to it already.

Te intellego. Benè possibile est oculum prope te referri, quod contextus indicet; aequè autem credibile tuum proprium oculum jam denotatum significari.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: ISTE in overlap with possesive adjectives and demonstrat

Postby Sinister Petrus » Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:15 pm

adrianus wrote:Te intellego. Benè possibile est oculum prope te referri, quod contextus indicet; aequè autem credibile tuum proprium oculum jam denotatum significari.


Iste oculus esse tibi potest, sed haud necesse. Re vera, Si oculus esset tibi, eum esse tuum dicerem. Nisi Gorgonea esses… Velut semper contextus est rex linguae. Quamquam certus praeceptum propono fallax, statim fit exceptio…

But I can't see any reason it would be necessary to say something like "Iste oculus est tibi." My feel from reading would make me say either "Oculus est tibi" or "Iste est oculus." Of course a quick spin of the wheel of Google turns up this:

I. Dum nescias, esse discendum.

Discendi, Damiane, modum te quærere dicunt;
Discas, dum nescis, sit modus iste tibi.

Godfrey of Winchester

http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/godfrey.epigrammata.html
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Re: ISTE in overlap with possesive adjectives and demonstrat

Postby adrianus » Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:16 am

Sinister Petrus wrote:But I can't see any reason it would be necessary to say something like "Iste oculus est tibi."


A: "I hit my eye!"
B: "Does your eye hurt?"

A: "Percussus mihi oculus!"
B: "Vulneratusne iste oculus?"
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: ISTE in overlap with possesive adjectives and demonstrat

Postby Sinister Petrus » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:43 am

adrianus wrote:A: "Percussus mihi oculus!"
B: "Vulneratusne iste oculus?"


Rem in acu tetigisti, vel mihi videtur.
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Re: ISTE in overlap with possesive adjectives and demonstrat

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:32 am

Sinister Petrus wrote:3. iste oculus = oculus non est tibi, sed prope te.


The third is somewhat different. Iste, ista, istud is a demonstrative pronoun.

In the strictest sense, so far as my reading leads me to understand, it means "that one near you".




My book says 'this or that' (of yours)



Sinister Petrus wrote:
adrianus wrote:Te intellego. Benè possibile est oculum prope te referri, quod contextus indicet; aequè autem credibile tuum proprium oculum jam denotatum significari.


But I can't see any reason it would be necessary to say something like "Iste oculus est tibi." My feel from reading would make me say either "Oculus est tibi" or "Iste est oculus."



If it is 'this or that' (of yours) does this mean that it behaves like the
possessive adjective SUUS instead of the demonstrative like HIC?

thank you so much
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Re: ISTE in overlap with possesive adjectives and demonstrat

Postby Sinister Petrus » Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:53 am

blutoonwithcarrotandnail wrote:My book says 'this or that' (of yours)

If it is 'this or that' (of yours) does this mean that it behaves like the
possessive adjective SUUS instead of the demonstrative like HIC?

thank you so much


It is a demonstrative. Period.

Your book is accurate, but I sense (perhaps wrongly) that it is confusing you. Iste does mean "this/that of yours." The problem is that that we don't have a single English word that maps onto the concept of iste: so we make a kludge into a definition.

Pretend with me that there are possessive adjectives and demonstrative adjectives/pronouns (as the demonstratives can do both) that go with each person of the verb.

possessive demonstrative
1st s meus, a, um hic, haec, hoc
p noster, tra, trum "

2nd s tuus, a, um iste, ista, istud
p vester, tra, trum "

3rd s/p reflexive suus, a, um ille, illa, illud
s non-reflxv eius* "
p non-reflxv eorum* "

*Eius and eorum aren't possessive adjectives, but they do allow you to show possession in non-reflexive situations.

Or at least that's how it holds together in my head.
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Re: ISTE in overlap with possesive adjectives and demonstrat

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:13 am

adrianus wrote:
A: "I hit my eye!"
B: "Does your eye hurt?"

A: "Percussus mihi oculus!"
B: "Vulneratusne iste oculus?"


good afternoon,

could you please combine this into one sentence?

thank you so much
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Re: ISTE in overlap with possesive adjectives and demonstrat

Postby adrianus » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:14 am

"I asked you whether the eye you mentioned was hurt because I hit mine and it's hurt."

"Te rogavi an vulneratus esset iste oculus quod et mihi percussus est oculus qui est vulneratus."
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: ISTE in overlap with possesive adjectives and demonstrat

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:03 am

adrianus wrote:"I asked you whether the eye you mentioned was hurt because I hit mine and it's hurt."

"Te rogavi an vulneratus esset iste oculus quod et mihi percussus est oculus qui est vulneratus."


good afternoon,
good day,

Is there any agreement between 'ISTE OCULUS' and 'MIHI'? Gender? Anything else?

thank you
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Re: ISTE in overlap with possesive adjectives and demonstrat

Postby adrianus » Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:41 am

Good morning, and in case I don't see ya, good afternoon, good evening, and good night!

Bonum antemeridianum ac, ut te non videam, bonum postmeridianum, bonum vesperum, bonam noctem!

Nulla concordia exstat. Suis viribus innitentia ista verba.

There's no agreement. Those terms are independent.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: ISTE in overlap with possesive adjectives and demonstrat

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:28 am

good day,

my text seems to be calling attention to the nom
and voc of MEUS

but let me ask you this

DO DEMONSTRATIVES EVER DEPEND ON POSSESIVE
ADJECTIVES IN CONJUGATION OR VICE VERSA


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Re: ISTE in overlap with possesive adjectives and demonstrat

Postby adrianus » Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:14 am

Haec mea sunt.
These things are mine.

Puella suam ipsam matrem novit.
A girl knows her own mother.

The possessive pronoun and demonstrative pronoun (if pointing to the same thing) agree in gender, number and case, I believe.

Pronomina possessivum et demonstrativum invicem (vel ad idem) conjuncta in genere numero casu (et personâ archaicè dicitur) inter se concordant, credo.

N.B. // Nota benè

"mihi" is not a possessive pronoun (not "my", strictly) but a personal pronoun ("to me" or "[belonging] to me" when with the verb "esse").

Non possessivum sed personale est "mihi" pronomen, quod cum "esse" verbo "proprius -a -um mihi" denotat.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: ISTE in overlap with possesive adjectives and demonstrat

Postby blutoonwithcarrotandnail » Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:03 am

I'm sorry I don't want to annoy everyone but one last question:

can a demonstrative or a possessive adjective occupy any
declension in a sentence. I believe both demonstratives
and possessive adjectives can supposedly occupy the
nominative, gen, acc, dat and abl and loc.

you could supposedly stick a demonstrative and a possessive
adjective in the same sentence in any varying combinations of declensions at once



sorry for the annoyance.

btwcan
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Re: ISTE in overlap with possesive adjectives and demonstrat

Postby adrianus » Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:16 am

You are right: they could be in any case and in any combination in the same sentence. They are similar only if attached to the same object.
Rectè dicis: possible est ea unâ in eâdem sententiâ quâcunque et quocunque casu inveni. Solùm cum eâdem re conjuncta similia sunt.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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