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Indovice!

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Indovice!

Postby LatinInscrip » Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:59 pm

Dear All,

I am trying to translate a Latin stone inscription found above a castle's entrance. It can be seen in this link:

http://i51.tinypic.com/sbr0hd.jpg

--------------------------------
Decus Pacis Terror Belli,
Indovice! Bona nulli
Far non sit Amabilis
Domus cui tu consultis.
--------------------------------

So far I've found out what the first line means: "Decus Pacis, Terror Belli" ("Terror in war, ornament in peace").

This inscription relates to a Marshal of France, and appears on his baton:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshal_of_France

It makes sense, since the castle belonged to the descendants of Noël Jourda, Count of Vaux (1705–1788), Marshal of France since 13.6.1783 (Under Louis XVI).

However, I have absolutely no idea what the other lines mean . . . no one seems to know what is "Indovice!" (or Indauice?), and according to the dictionary "far" is spelt, and I get lines like: the lovely house which you magistrate . . . I'm a bit lost here . . .

Your help would be very much appreciated.
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Re: Indovice!

Postby ptolemyauletes » Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:14 pm

far should read fac... see to it that you...
counsultis should read consulis

Glory of Peace, Terror of War, Indovice! No idea what Indovice is, perhaps a late or Medieval Latin coinage, perhaps a name or title?
I am not sure of the rest, but it may read 'let not that good house which you look after be lovable (welcoming) to no one.' Any other suggestions?

nulli can often take the place of nemini to mean 'no one'. The double negative is a bit odd, especially considering the placement of bona nulli at the start of the phrase. I suspect I have made a muddle of it.
Maybe it can read 'Good to no one? See to it that the loveable house which you look after is not. :roll:
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Re: Indovice!

Postby adrianus » Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:40 pm

Decus Pacis Terror Belli,
Ludovice! Bona nulli
Fac non sit Amabilis
Domus cui tu consulis.


Ornament of Peace, Terror in War,
Ludovic! See to it that the
Noble home which you look after [or even "now gaze and reflect upon"]
should be a Delight to [/worthy to be loved by] someone [non nulli].

Or "Ensure that to no one this noble building would not be worthy of love..."
Last edited by adrianus on Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Indovice!

Postby ptolemyauletes » Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:57 pm

Thanks Adrianus for confirming essentially what I wrote, and for, as usual, expressing it more eloquently.
Ludovic.... yes, I can see that clearly now... I looked at it for several moments, but nothing came.
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Re: Indovice!

Postby LatinInscrip » Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:02 pm

Thank you both!

I'm so happy to finally know what the inscription means.

One thing remains unsolved, though:

Is Indovice :D actually Ludovic?

I can clearly see an "e" after the vic (=Ludovice)

pic: http://i51.tinypic.com/sbr0hd.jpg

Is there a difference between Ludovic and Ludovice?

I found some additional information regarding this name:

"Ludovic was a latinized of the French royal name, Louis."

Could this name be referring to King Louis XVI? The castle was completed in 1888, almost a century after his death.

Who do you think this name (Ludovic, Ludovice, Louis) would refer to, then?
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Re: Indovice!

Postby thesaurus » Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:35 pm

The "e" on "Ludovice" is a sign of the vocative case. That is, the inscription is addressing this person by name.
Horae quidem cedunt et dies et menses et anni, nec praeteritum tempus umquam revertitur nec quid sequatur sciri potest. Quod cuique temporis ad vivendum datur, eo debet esse contentus. --Cicero, De Senectute
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Re: Indovice!

Postby adrianus » Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:26 am

The Comte de Vaux was a Knight of the Order of Saint Louis, which Order was instituted by Louis XIV and named after Louis IX. So "Louis/Ludovicus" in the inscription may refer to Louis IX who was patron saint of the Order. The castle (Vaux-le-Vicomte?) was probably restored, not build, in 1888.

Miles Ordinis Sancti Ludovici erat Noël Jourda comes de Vaux, quem ordinem Ludovicus Quartus Decimus instituit et per nomen Ludovici Noni vocavit. Possibile est illum Ludovicum Nonum sanctum ordinis patronum significari. Probabiliter restitutum non conditum anno millesimo octingentesimo octogesimo octavo illud castellum (Vaux-le-Vicomte?).
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Indovice!

Postby Antipater » Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:31 pm

salvete

With Bono, the inscription reads as follows:

Decus Pacis Terror Belli,
Ludovice! Bono nulli
Fac non sit Amabilis
Domus cui tu consulis.

O Ludivicus (Louis), Glory in Peace, Terror in War!
See to it that not for no good is the lovely
House which you look after
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Re: Indovice!

Postby adrianus » Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:01 pm

You're right, Antipater. It says "Bono nulli" not "Bona nulli".
Recte dicis, Antipater. "Bono nulli" non "Bona nulli" scribitur.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Indovice!

Postby LatinInscrip » Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:23 am

Thanks, Antipater, and thank you everyone for your help. I am happy that this forum exists :)

Adrianus, you're correct. The castle was demolished and rebuilt around 1888, in the 13th century neo early-gothical style, by Louise Marie Eulalie and her husband, Amable Alexis de Jourda, Earl (Count) of Vaux. He was related to Noël Jourda (1705–1788), Comte (Count) of Vaux.

It seems that the inscription has been successfully translated, but I'm still wondering:

1. Did the Jourda family begin their appeal for King Louis's protection (Ludovice!) with the famous words "Decus Pacis, Terror Belli" in order to remind him of his "indebtedness"? Or is that line mentioned for another reason? What do you think?

2. Adrianus, you wrote that "The Comte de Vaux was a Knight of the Order of Saint Louis". Does this refer to Noël Jourda? To another Count of Vaux? Or perhaps to all the Counts of Vaux? Where can I read more about this?

So far, I only found two sources of information about the history of this castle (Château de Petite Somme), which is situated in the heart of the Belgian Ardennes:

http://www.iskcon.net.au/kurma/2005/07/05/The-History-of-Chteau-de-PetiteSomme

http://www.radhadesh.com/en/guided-tours/castle-history
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Re: Indovice!

Postby adrianus » Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:33 am

I know nothing more about Noël Jourda than what I read online here, where it says he was a knight of that order:
Nihil plus de Comite de Vaux scio quàm quod hîc in interrete legere possum, quo eum militem illius ordinis fuisse scribitur :

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noel_de_Jourda
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Indovice!

Postby adrianus » Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:09 pm

LatinInscrip wrote:1. Did the Jourda family begin their appeal for King Louis's protection (Ludovice!) with the famous words "Decus Pacis, Terror Belli" in order to remind him of his "indebtedness"? Or is that line mentioned for another reason? What do you think?

I think not. It relates simply and proudly to the entitlement to use that inscription as Maréchal de France and Knight of the Order of Saint Louis, I would say.
Nego. De usu epitheti, dicam rem spectare jus usûs manifestum magnificumque Tribuno Galliae Milito et Militi Ordinis Sancti Ludovici.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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