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Themistocles

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Themistocles

Postby Einhard » Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:06 pm

Salvete,

I've just translated an extract from Nepos from the Loci Immutati in Wheelock, and there are, as usual, a few stubborn sentences that just won't yield to my efforts!

Themistocles ad (bellum Corcyraeum) gerendum praetor a populo factus, non solum praesenti bello sed etiam reliquo tempore ferociorem redidit civitatem

Themistocles, having been made commander by the people to prosecute the war, not delivered the state from the present war, but also restored a more powerful state in the remaining time

This is quite troublesome, because I feel as if I know what the correct rendering is, but it just eludes me. It's mocking me!!
EDIT: I think I've cracked it, but comments are welcome nonetheless!

Nam cum Xerxes et mari et terra bellum universae inferret Europae, cum tantis copiis eam invasit quantas neque ante nec postea habuit quisquam

For when Xerxes made war on the whole of Europe from land and from sea, he invaded with an overwhelming force such as nobody had/regarded either before or after

I made the translation slightly idiomatic (eg: quisquam/neque/nec=nobody-either/or) but I think it achieves the meaning of the original. I read "eam" as relating to Europe.

...addunt ad superiores (naves) totidem naves triremes

they add just as many triremes to the superior/higher ships

...Themistocles unus restitit et universos pares esse posse aiebat, dispersos testabatur perituros; idque Eurybiadi, regi Lacedaemoniorum, qui tum summae imperii praeerat, fore adfirmabat

...Themistocles alone resisted and stated that together they could be equal to the Persians, declared that scattered they would perish; and he announced to Eurybiades, the Spartan king, who then held the highest command, that he was going to be

It's the second part of this that I'm having difficulty with. I'm pretty certain that Themistocles is announcing that he is going to assume imperium, but it doesn't read well.

qui si discessissent, maiore cum labore...bellum confecturum, cum singulos consectari cogeretur, quos si statim aggrederetur, brevi universos oppressurum...

if they fled, since he would be complelled to pursue one at a time, the war would end with greater labour, whereas if he attacked them immediately, the whole would be overcome in a short while...

Again, I render this idiomatically, rather than with absolute grammatical felicity, but I think it captures the essence of what's being related. However, if anyone has anything to add, I'm all ears.

Nam pari modo apud Salamina parvo numero navium maxima post hominum memoriam classis est devicta

For in the same way at Salamis, a great fleet was utterly destroyed beyond the memory of man by a small number of fleets

The sticking point in this sentence is pretty obvious. Get rid of "post hominum memoriam" and it's be grand!! I think though, that I've rendered a good approximation of what is meant, but again it reads poorly. So suggestions and corrections are appreciated.

Thanks,
Einhard.
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Re: Themistocles

Postby adrianus » Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:21 pm

Salve Einharde

not only did he render the state fitter for war in the current war but also during the rest of the time.

to the superior ships they add the same number of triremes (ut dicis)

and that, he affirmed to Eurybiades..., would be [the case/ would happen, i.e, that they would perish]

the greatest fleet in human memory was annihilated
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Themistocles

Postby Imber Ranae » Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:29 am

Einhard wrote:Themistocles ad (bellum Corcyraeum) gerendum praetor a populo factus, non solum praesenti bello sed etiam reliquo tempore ferociorem redidit civitatem

Themistocles, having been made commander by the people to prosecute the war, not delivered the state from the present war, but also restored a more powerful state in the remaining time

This is quite troublesome, because I feel as if I know what the correct rendering is, but it just eludes me. It's mocking me!!
EDIT: I think I've cracked it, but comments are welcome nonetheless!


As Adrianus implies, praesenti bello and reliquo tempore are both ablative of time when, describing when the state will be "fiercer/more warlike". Like Greek τοῦ λοιποῦ χρόνου, reliquo tempore often means "in the future", i.e. the time that remains yet to happen. I would translate: "...not only in the present war, but for all time."

Einhard wrote:Nam cum Xerxes et mari et terra bellum universae inferret Europae, cum tantis copiis eam invasit quantas neque ante nec postea habuit quisquam

For when Xerxes made war on the whole of Europe from land and from sea, he invaded with an overwhelming force such as nobody had/regarded either before or after

I made the translation slightly idiomatic (eg: quisquam/neque/nec=nobody-either/or) but I think it achieves the meaning of the original. I read "eam" as relating to Europe.


Looks good, though I'd say "had" is the intended meaning, not "regarded".

Einhard wrote:...addunt ad superiores (naves) totidem naves triremes

they add just as many triremes to the superior/higher ships


I'm not sure exactly what the context is here, but superior in Latin often means "the above-mentioned".

Einhard wrote:...Themistocles unus restitit et universos pares esse posse aiebat, dispersos testabatur perituros; idque Eurybiadi, regi Lacedaemoniorum, qui tum summae imperii praeerat, fore adfirmabat

...Themistocles alone resisted and stated that together they could be equal to the Persians, declared that scattered they would perish; and he announced to Eurybiades, the Spartan king, who then held the highest command, that he was going to be

It's the second part of this that I'm having difficulty with. I'm pretty certain that Themistocles is announcing that he is going to assume imperium, but it doesn't read well.


No. The operative word is id, which refers to the entire previous statement: id fore = "that this would be [so]".

I would translate: "And he assured Eurybiades, the king of Lacedaemon, who at that time held the supreme command, that this would be the case." (i.e. that they would be destroyed if they scattered, but would prove an equal match to the Persians if they stuck together.)

Einhard wrote:qui si discessissent, maiore cum labore...bellum confecturum, cum singulos consectari cogeretur, quos si statim aggrederetur, brevi universos oppressurum...

if they fled, since he would be complelled to pursue one at a time, the war would end with greater labour, whereas if he attacked them immediately, the whole would be overcome in a short while...

Again, I render this idiomatically, rather than with absolute grammatical felicity, but I think it captures the essence of what's being related. However, if anyone has anything to add, I'm all ears.


[s]I think context shows that universos refers to all of the Greeks together, as opposed to singulos, not "the whole world"[/s]. [ETA: Never mind, I misread "the whole would". // Why doesn't strikeout work?? ]

Other than that I can't say much, as your ellipses make it difficult for me to determine exactly how the clauses fit together. Is this indirect statement?

Einhard wrote:Nam pari modo apud Salamina parvo numero navium maxima post hominum memoriam classis est devicta

For in the same way at Salamis, a great fleet was utterly destroyed beyond the memory of man by a small number of fleets

The sticking point in this sentence is pretty obvious. Get rid of "post hominum memoriam" and it's be grand!! I think though, that I've rendered a good approximation of what is meant, but again it reads poorly. So suggestions and corrections are appreciated.


It's a bit of an idiom, but post hominum memoriam literally means "since the memory of man", i.e. as far back as men can remember ("memory" of course including all written records). The participial phrase modifies the adjective maxima rather than the verb est devicta, which explains why it is sandwiched between the words maxima and classis: "the greatest fleet ever known to man" we might say.

ETA: you surely meant "by a small number of ships", not "by a small number of fleets".
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Re: Themistocles

Postby furrykef » Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:41 am

Imber Ranae wrote:Why doesn't strikeout work??

'Cause it's never been one of phpBB's features. Some phpBB forums have it, but only because they installed a plugin for it.
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Re: Themistocles

Postby Einhard » Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:47 pm

Thanks for that adrianus and Imber Ranae. I know the ellipses distort what's being said somewhat, but they're actually how the text is laid out in Wheelock, rather than my own interpolation. And yes, I meant ships rather than fleets!! Wouldn't have been such a great victory had the Greeks a few fleets hanging about the place!!
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