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Cicero translation.

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Cicero translation.

Postby Einhard » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:04 pm

Salvete,
Just need a little clarification on the following line:

nec enim tuis es quem forma ista declarat, sed mens cuiusque is est quisque, non ea figura quae digito demonstrari potest.

for nor are you that form which declares itself to your friends, but each person is the mind of that form, not that shape which can be demonstrated by a finger

Or more idiomatically: for you are not the form which your friends see, but rather each person is the mind within that body, and not the shape which can be pointed to with a finger

I think the translation is generally correct, but there's one or two grammatical points I'm unsure of. What exactly does "quem" modify for example? Most likely, I think, it's Scipio Africanus, the addressee of the line, so it would be something like: for nor are you who declares himself to his friends that form....", but it doesn't sound correct.

Also, I'm treating "is" as in apposition with "quisque". Any comments on that?

Thanks,
Einhard.
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Re: Cicero translation.

Postby modus.irrealis » Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:11 pm

Hi,

For the first part, "nec enim tuis es quem forma ista declarat", I'd say it's like "nec enim tuis es [is] quem forma ista declarat", so it's something like "nor are you to yours that which (or he who) that form of yours [ista] declares". The "quem" modifies some implicit word like "is", but it can't strictly mean "you are not the form" since then I would expect a feminine "quam". (With "tuis", it seems to have been emended by lots of people to just "tu" or "tu is", but as "tuis", where it goes depends on how flexible you think the word order is, but I took as it going with "es" rather than "declarat".)

For "sed mens cuiusque is est quisque, non ea figura quae digito demonstrari potest", I would treat it a little more loosely than you did, something like "but the mind of everyone, everyone is that, not that shape..." Basically I take "is" to refer back to "mens" and emphasize it.
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Re: Cicero translation.

Postby adrianus » Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:13 pm

modus.irrealis wrote:Basically I take "is" to refer back to "mens" and emphasize it.

But "mind" is feminine. Rather this?
Feminini autem generis est mens. Immò itá?

"...but everyone is one such as [is characterized by] their/each's mind..." (A&G 308e). "but everyone is [really more] their mind [than their body]"
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Cicero translation.

Postby modus.irrealis » Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:16 pm

adrianus wrote:
modus.irrealis wrote:Basically I take "is" to refer back to "mens" and emphasize it.

But "mind" is feminine.

I was thinking that "is" would be attracted by the gender of "quisque", but that's probably pushing it.

Edit: I did find this commentary however that states:

mens cuiusque is est quisque: the resumptive use of is without any intervening phrase is archaic, and rare in classical Latin; cf. H-S 187, OLD s.v. B6b. The gender of is is assimilated to that of quisque.
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Re: Cicero translation.

Postby adrianus » Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:09 pm

Yes, exactly.
Ità adeò.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Cicero translation.

Postby furrykef » Sat Aug 28, 2010 2:52 am

adrianus wrote:But "mind" is feminine.

No, "mēns" is feminine. Remember that gender always describes the word, not the actual thing, and the English word "mind" has no gender at all. ;)
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Re: Cicero translation.

Postby rclancy » Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:41 pm

nec enim tuis es quem forma ista declarat, sed mens cuiusque is est quisque, non ea fgura quae digito demonstrari potest.

The difficult part is a well known expression often quoted from Cicero
"mens cuiusque is est quisque" = "the mind is the man."

The literal breakdown of the phrase can be found in "World dictionary of foreign expressions: a resource for readers and writers" By Gabriel Adeleye et al. found under the Latin expression itself, adapted therefrom as follows:
1) mens mind
2) cuiusque of each one
3) is - that (person) [is, ea, id, also means "that person or thing"]
4) est - is
5) quisque each one, [hence each person, or "the man himself"]

Therefore the literal translation is: "the mind of each man, that man [is] is each person."

Now the whole sentence:
"...for neither are you to your friends (tuis) what that [external] form declares, but the mind of each person is the man, not that form which is to be pointed out by a finger.
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