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Lingua Latina

Postby Einhard » Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:57 pm

Salvete omnes iterum,

Am just after finishing Cap XL in Lingua Latina, and the following lines caused me some difficulty. Would be grateful if anyone voudl cast some light upon them:

Sed quid sacrificia mulierem furentem iuvant

I can't figure out the use of "quid" here. "sacrificia" is neuter plural, so quid shouldn't agree with it. Unless I'm missing something extremely obvious.

Dixit, et os impressa toro...

Again, I can't see how "impressa" agrees with either "os" or Dido herself.

Tu regere imperio populos, Romane, memento

What on earth is "memento"?? I figure it's related to memini, meminisse but can't place it for sure. Also, anyone have a translation for "nolito". Again, related to nolo I'm sure, but can't pin it down.

Thanks...
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Re: Lingua Latina

Postby adrianus » Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:13 am

Sed quid sacrificia mulierem furentem iuvant
"But what/how do sacrifices help/benefit/avail an angry woman?"

Dixit, et os impressa toro...
"And [she] buried [as to] her face in the bed, she said..." = "And, with her face buried in the bed, she said...", in accusative of specification // per accusativum synecdochicum (vide A&G §397b sectio trecenti nonaginta septem pars b)

memento = "remember" (pres. act. imp. 2nd pers. sing. // tempore praesenti vocis activae modo imperativo personae secundae numeri singularis
nolito = "be unwilling" (fut. act. imp. 2nd and 3rd pers. sing // tempore futuro vocis activae modo imperativo personae et secundae et tertiae numeri singularis
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Lingua Latina

Postby ptolemyauletes » Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:48 am

Adrianus wrote:
Sed quid sacrificia mulierem furentem iuvant
"But what/how do sacrifices help/benefit/avail an angry woman?"

Dixit, et os impressa toro...
"And [she] buried [as to] her face in the bed, she said..." = "And, with her face buried in the bed, she said...", in accusative of specification // per accusativum synecdochicum (vide A&G §397b sectio trecenti nonaginta septem pars b)

memento = "remember" (pres. act. imp. 2nd pers. sing. // tempore praesenti vocis activae modo imperativo personae secundae numeri singularis
nolito = "be unwilling" (fut. act. imp. 2nd and 3rd pers. sing // tempore futuro vocis activae modo imperativo personae et secundae et tertiae numeri singularis


1. possibly even 'Why do sacrifices help an angry woman?'

2. The dictates of meter often result in some pretty odd grammatical constructions. Here we have an accusative with a passive participle, where grammatically, according to normal rules, it doesn't seem to fit. Adrianus' explanation is exactly correct. Roman poets (and occasionally prose writers) can use the accusative in just this way (with a lovely name made up to make it seem grammatical), sort of floating free in the sentence... the grammar is a bit odd, but the meaning is understood. Think of it as an accusative object with a passive verb. Strange, but acceptable grammar.

3. The Romans distinguish between a command to do (or not do) something at this very moment, and one that refers to the future.
memento, mementote pl.
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Re: Lingua Latina

Postby adrianus » Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:43 pm

ptolemyauletes wrote:Think of it [synedoche] as an accusative object with a passive verb.

This construction of synecdoche is not so much for passive verbs but for anything at all (even implied) standing for (modifying, really) a noun, including of course participles. Here is a passage from Priscian on this:

Minùs ad vocis passivae verba pertinet constructio synecdoche, magìs ad quamcunque rem (etiam si obliquata quidem sit) nominis loco (veriùs ad nomen adjuncta), quod certè participia includere potest. En apud Priscianum locus aptus:

Prisciani Grammatici Caesariensis Institutionum Grammaticarum, liber octavus decimus versus vinginti septem et sequentes (Keil, volumen tertium, pagina ducenti viginta), wrote:Accusativo quoque nominativi [*] adiunguntur figurate, quando, quod parti accidit, hoc toti redditur. et totum quidem per nominativum, pars autem per accusativum profertur, ut ‘fortis dextram’ pro ‘fortem dextram habens; celer pedes’ pro ‘celeres pedes habens; sapiens animam’ pro ‘sapientem animam habens; albus colorem’ pro ‘album colorem habens’. et in omnibus subaudiendum ‘qui est’, etiam si obliquentur, ut ‘albi colorem equi’ id est ‘equi eius, qui est albi coloris; albo colorem equo; album colorem equum’. sic etiam per pluralia ‘albi colorem equi oblati sunt imperatori; alborum colorem equorum corpus fuit; albis colorem equis vehitur; albos colorem equos iungit’. nam quicumque casus nominativo adiunguntur, etiam declinato construi possunt.
Virgilius in I: Nuda genu nodoque sinus collecta fluentes.
idem in VI: lacerum crudeliter ora, || Ora manusque ambas populataque tempora raptis || Auribus.
idem in V: intentaque bracchia remis || Intenti.


By the accusative also nominatives [*] are modified descriptively, when what happens to a part is applied to the whole. And the whole indeed by the nominative, the part however by the accusative is mentioned, as "fortis dextram (strong in the right hand)" for "having a strong right hand"; "celer pedes (fleet of foot)" for "having fast feet"; "sapiens animam (rational in mind)" for "having a rational mind". Also in all of them "which is" must be understood, even if they are uttered obliquely: as "albi colorem equi (of his horse white as to colour)" that is "of his horse, which is white in colour"; "albo colorem equo; album colorem equum (to the horse white as to colour; the horse—in the accusative—white as to colour)". Similarly also in plurals "horses white as to colour were presented to the emperor; there was a collection of horses white as to colour; he is conveyed by the horses white as to colour; he harnesses the horses white as to colour". For whatever are the cases attached to the nominative [of "qui est" he means, I reckon], they can be construed likewise in the changed word-form.
Virgil in Book I (320): "Bare as to the knee [acc. s.] and [she] gathered as of flowing folds [acc. p.] [with her flowing skirt-folds gathered] by a knot."
The same in VI (495-497): "[him] cruelly mutilated as of lips, of lips and of both hands and of temples stripped, from his ears being taken as spoils."
The same in V (136-137): "as of arms stretched to the oars || they attentive...".

[*] He's already talking earlier in this chapter about nominatives // Iam priùs in hôc capite nominativo de casu tractabat.

Any mistakes in translating? // Erravine in vertendo?


Ah, if there was one reason for learning Latin it has to be the Aeneid. What a great movie in words!
Si una sola ratio exstet cur latinum discendum sit, verò Aeneis eam praebeat. Ut magna taeniola cinematographica per verba est!
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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