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Eius vs. Suis

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Re: Eius vs. Suis

Postby pmda » Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:17 am

I posted this this am but its not here so I'll try again....

Just to cofirm my understanding I posted this earlier in the thread but then posted something else immediately under it so it got lost. I have revised it slightly also.

In answer to:

Ubi sunt margaritae Aemiliae?

Could I write:

Margaritae eius in collo eo est.

Does that look OK? The subject is Margaritae and NOT Aemilia and so it's gotta be eius...eo.... and not sua .....suo right?
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Re: Eius vs. Suis

Postby rkday » Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:19 pm

pmda wrote:I posted this this am but its not here so I'll try again....

Just to cofirm my understanding I posted this earlier in the thread but then posted something else immediately under it so it got lost. I have revised it slightly also.

In answer to:

Ubi sunt margaritae Aemiliae?

Could I write:

Margaritae eius in collo eo est.

Does that look OK? The subject is Margaritae and NOT Aemilia and so it's gotta be eius...eo.... and not sua .....suo right?
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Margaritae eius in collo eius sunt

"eo collo", where the two agree, is just "that neck" - only "eius", the genitive form (of that one, of her) conveys possession. It's exactly like having "margaritae eius" rather than "margaritae eae" - suus -a -um is the declinable possessive adjective, whereas eius/eorum have a constant form.

("sunt" is just because the subject, margaritae, are plural - but it looks like that's just a slip)

You have the basic idea right, though - Aemila isn't the subject so you can't use sua.
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Re: Eius vs. Suis

Postby pmda » Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:51 pm

Many thanks..

Actually that was a basic mistake - even for me. I can only say that it was very early in the morning when I posted that!.Thanks again.
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Re: Eius vs. Suis

Postby adrianus » Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:00 pm

You might like this from the Bible:
Forsit hoc ex Bibliis tibi placeat:
Matthaeus, in capitulo Evangeli sui duodevicesimo, in versu sex, wrote:qui autem scandalizaverit unum de pusillis istis, qui in me credunt, expedit ei ut suspendatur mola asinaria in collo ejus, et demergatur in profundum maris.

Anyone however who corrupts one of these little ones who believe in me, it is best that an a_s_s's millstone be hung round his neck and he be dropped into [drowned in] the depths of the sea.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Eius vs. Suis

Postby Carolus Raeticus » Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:25 am

Hello!

1) Usage of "Eius vs. Suus"

User interaxus is refering to an external posting from 2005 ("Struggling with sentence"). I looked that up and am somewhat confused because of its answer.
The question by one Stephen was about the correct translation of the sentence "Interea, Rufilla, Salvii uxor, dum spes eius firma manebat, pollicebatur se sociam cuiuscumque fortunae futuram esse." Stephen suggests the answer "Meanwhile, Rufilla, Salvius' wife, while her hope remained firm, promised that she would be partner of whatever fortune."
This question is answered by one Maria. She confirms that the translation is
grammatically correct as ‘eius' in this case does not refer to the subject of the phrase “ dum spes eius firma manebat” (where the subject is SPES), but to the subject of the main phrase, i.e. “Interea, RUFILLA, Salvii uxor………pollicebatur….”, and then EIUS shows a non-reflexive possession.

So far so good. But to me it does not seem obvious that "spes eius" refers to Rufilla. Shouldn't (couldn't it at least) refer rather to the hope of Salvius? If not, how would one express that it is the hope of Salvius (without explicitly using his name). Or can this matter be resolved only by looking at the wider context?

2) "unum de pusillis istis"?

Adrianus posted on June 9 a quote from the Bible:
qui autem scandalizaverit unum de pusillis istis, qui in me credunt, expedit ei ut suspendatur mola asinaria in collo ejus, et demergatur in profundum maris.

I always thought that expressions like "unum de pusillis istis" because "de" is not used that way. Instead it ought to read "unum ex pusillis istis". Am I wrong?
Valete,

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Re: Eius vs. Suis

Postby furrykef » Wed Jun 30, 2010 2:30 am

I found an example of "suus" referring to somebody other than the subject in Lingua Latina (chapter 18): "Mārcus, ut puer improbus, magistrō verba sua reddit: 'Nōn semper dīcimus idem atque scrībimus!'" Here "sua" clearly refers to the teacher's words, not Marcus's, since the teacher said nearly the same thing earlier. Assuming Ørberg's usage here is well informed (and why wouldn't it be?), this seems to confirm my earlier hypothesis that "suus" can be used to emphasize "own" in sentences such as this, which I would translate as, "Marcus, like a naughty boy, throws the teacher's own words back at him." Clearly, "eius" would be possible but it wouldn't carry that extra emphasis.

Thus, the rule appears to be:
* If the possessor is the subject of the verb, "suus" is obligatory and "eius" is not possible.
* Otherwise, either "eius" or "suus" can be used, depending on if you just mean "his/her/its" (eius) or if you mean "his/her/its own" (suus).
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Re: Eius vs. Suis

Postby adrianus » Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:05 am

unus de/ex
Both are good. See A&G §346c.
Utrum bonum est. Vide A&S, sectionem trecentesimam quadragesimam sextam, partem c.

On "suus -a um" when not the subject, see A&G §300.
De usu "suus -a -um" pronominis possessivi non subjecti, vide A&G, sectionem trecentesimam.

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I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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