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ABSOLUTUS ABLATIVUS...? OR NOT...?

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ABSOLUTUS ABLATIVUS...? OR NOT...?

Postby Swth\r » Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:08 pm

Which one seems to you wrong...? Or are they both correct???

Admissis amicis (ABL. ABS.) in cubiculum, hic dixit eis se putare caelum dubium esse. (eis = amicis-in DATIVE)

Hic dixit amicis (DAT.) admissis (DAT.) in cubiculum se putare caelum dubium esse.

Quid de hoc opinamini?
Dives qui sapiens est...
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Re: ABSOLUTUS ABLATIVUS...? OR NOT...?

Postby adrianus » Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:02 am

The first is wrong because it's ablative absolute clause references something contained elsewhere in the sentence, Swth/r.
Falsum, Swth/r, est primum exemplum cuius clausula per ablativum absolutum pertineat ad rem quae alibi in sententiâ reperitur.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: ABSOLUTUS ABLATIVUS...? OR NOT...?

Postby Swth\r » Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:31 am

Ut sentis, Adriane, arbitror etiam.

Adrianus, it seems that we have the same opinion on the matter...
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Re: ABSOLUTUS ABLATIVUS...? OR NOT...?

Postby cb » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:06 pm

hi, an abl absolute can, in fact, reference something contained elsewhere in the sentence: it's not usual, but it does occur in golden prose and so you can't automatically conclude that any use of this construction is wrong: see woodcock s93, pg 74 (i've marked the relevant para):

http://mhninaeide2.webs.com/absolutepron.pdf

cheers :)
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Re: ABSOLUTUS ABLATIVUS...? OR NOT...?

Postby adrianus » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:46 pm

Thanks, cb. I didn't know that. I had thought it was ungrammatical.
Gratias tibi, cb. Id ignoraveram et usum ut soloecismus habueram.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: ABSOLUTUS ABLATIVUS...? OR NOT...?

Postby Swth\r » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:45 pm

cb wrote:hi, an abl absolute can, in fact, reference something contained elsewhere in the sentence: it's not usual, but it does occur in golden prose and so you can't automatically conclude that any use of this construction is wrong: see woodcock s93, pg 74 (i've marked the relevant para):

http://mhninaeide2.webs.com/absolutepron.pdf

cheers :)


Nice work "cb"!
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Re: ABSOLUTUS ABLATIVUS...? OR NOT...?

Postby thesaurus » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:42 am

Like my ablatives, I prefer my grammatical rules absolutist, so I'm going to pretend I didn't see this information.

Ut verba ablativa, sic regulae grammaticae absolutae esse mihi placet. Itaque hoc non esse fingo.
Horae quidem cedunt et dies et menses et anni, nec praeteritum tempus umquam revertitur nec quid sequatur sciri potest. Quod cuique temporis ad vivendum datur, eo debet esse contentus. --Cicero, De Senectute
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Re: ABSOLUTUS ABLATIVUS...? OR NOT...?

Postby cb » Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:20 am

lol :)
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Re: ABSOLUTUS ABLATIVUS...? OR NOT...?

Postby Swth\r » Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:36 am

thesaurus wrote:Like my ablatives, I prefer my grammatical rules absolutist, so I'm going to pretend I didn't see this information.

Ut verba ablativa, sic regulae grammaticae absolutae esse mihi placet. Itaque hoc non esse fingo.


Fictio ista, Thesaure, mihi quoque multum placet... Regulas enim amo.
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