Textkit Logo

The importance of audio

Here's where you can discuss all things Latin. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get translation help and more!

Moderator: thesaurus

Re: The importance of audio

Postby metrodorus » Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:32 am

Oh, I'll return to the GLL. I always do. I enjoy it too much to leave it for long. However, I was tempted to get into an argument, and thought it better to have a short holiday, and come back in a week or two when a different topic dominated the airwaves, so to speak. I love the GLL - it is a great place, and a great resource for everyone.
I run various Latin sites, including Schola and the Latinum YouTube channel - the main portal to these is http://latinum.org.uk
metrodorus
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 290
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:19 pm

Re: The importance of audio

Postby metrodorus » Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:55 am

I left GLL temporarily. I'm back again. Boy, they need to sort out their introductory message with the crucial instructions, that are given in Polish only. I certainly didn't receive a message in Polish only the first time I joined, perhaps they have a new server.
I run various Latin sites, including Schola and the Latinum YouTube channel - the main portal to these is http://latinum.org.uk
metrodorus
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 290
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:19 pm

Re: The importance of audio

Postby adrianus » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:15 am

I told you I hadn't criticized your readings, Metrodorus.
Metrodorus wrote:"what is important on Latinum, is my technical ability to interpret texts orally - which, it seems, you do not dispute...My skill is being able to read fluently and with emotion and accuracy, to enable the texts to be used as educational texts."

Let me then dispute. I'll critique one chosen at random (very recent, as you requested), to illustrate what I think about your reading.

I listened to the "Pied Piper of Hameln" (an MP3 recording of December 4, 2009 of 180 Latin words).

Here are your consistent faults:
    you consistently pronounce "a" as in "cat";
    you consistently pronounce terminal "s" as a "z";
    you aren't able to articulate double consonants;
    you don't manage your vowel lengths consistently on unstressed syllables unless you proceed at a very deliberate pace;
    you are unaware of the stresses dictated by Latin word order shift and your own imposed sentence stresses are erratic and often give unintentionally comic or bizarre results.
I don't know if you always pronounce "picta" and "pervenit" with extra syllables, or "puerorum" with one fewer, or stress the first syllable of "concurrunt", or swop the lengths of the first two syllables of "laboremque" (which is nothing compared to your incorrect shortening of vowel lengths in so many other places), or always sound the "e" before "n" in "argenti", "ingenti" and "denique" so strangely and give the first two bizarre lengths, or change your mind continually about the sound of a short "i".

I wouldn't care that someone who wasn't fluent did those things. Actually, I wouldn't care about any of those things full stop, had you not invited criticism and claimed your readings were exemplary, when they clearly are not.

Most of the words you pronounce can be understood, but you would expect as much listening to anyone reading a passage with marked-up vowel lengths. These readings are patently by someone who doesn't read Latin fluently. We all like to think we're great, but it's a disgrace to try to pull the wool over others' eyes. These readings indicate a pretty average ability to read a rehearsed, marked-up text, and certainly score very poorly as dramatic renditions, because to do that well requires a more fluent understanding of written Latin and a little natural ability,—not just attempts to sound each word correctly and to heighten the result with ill-chosen modulations.

So no, I don't willingly listen to the Latinum recordings. I find them at best average, at worst unpleasant to listen to, and generally terribly anachronistic.

Me lectiones tuas, Metrodore, non incusasse tibi dixi. Ità respondisti:
"what is important on Latinum, is my technical ability to interpret texts orally - which, it seems, you do not dispute...My skill is being able to read fluently and with emotion and accuracy, to enable the texts to be used as educational texts."

Velim tunc reprehendere. Unam temerè dilectam (at novissimam, ut rogasti) nunc incusabo ad judicium meum demonstrandum.

Te de tibicine Hamelinae versicolore legentem auscultavi (scapo MP3 formae consignato per diem quartam mensis decembris anno bis millesimo nono qui in verbis centum octoginta consistit).

Ecce sunt vitia tua quae ubiquè se ostendunt:
    constanter, latinè "a" litteram per eandem litteram in "cat" anglicè sonas;
    litteram "s" terminantem sicut "z" sonas;
    nequis consonantes ancipites enuntiare;
    ubi syllaba vim non habet, inconstanti modo vocali longae durationem aptam non attribuis, nisi alibi sensim progrederis;
    quomodo ordo verborum latinè modulationem sententiae mutet ignoras, quâre et erraticae et nonnunquam imprudenter comoedicae vel alienae modulationes tuae sonuntur.
Nescio utrum semper soleas haec dicere necne,—"picta" et "pervenit" per unam syllabam additiciam, "puerorum" per unam pauciorem, "laboremque" per longinquitates vocalium primae et secundae permutas (quod parùm refert, toties alibi vocales longae perperàm corripiuntur), "concurrunt" per emphasen primâ in syllabâ,—vel sententiam semper permutare de ore "i" brevis litterae.

Quod aliquis qui latinè non facundè loquitur vitia talia facit, id non meâ refert, nec cotidiè mihi res magni momenti est. Tu autem hoc criticum provocasti qui exemplares lectiones tuas esse dixisses cum clarè non sunt.

Intellegi potest magna pars verborum quae sonas, at tantùm aliquo ab auscultando expectamus qui locum usitatum quantitatibus vocalum designatis legit. Palàm ab aliquo latinè non facundo hae lectiones. Quod omnis se magnoperè aestimat mirum non est, at odiosus ille vir qui caput innocentis obvolvere conetur. Ità monstrant hae lectiones: insignificans habilitas lectoris et ob legendum scriptorum in quibus tempora vocalium iam denotata sunt et ob artem histrionis, quae ars non solùm tonos verborum rectos sed comprehensionem sententiarum affectionumque etiam advocat et falsos tonos temporaque et hyperbolen ineptam abhorret.
Denique de Metrodoro impressiones sonituum apud Latinum situm non libenter ausculto, quas potissimè mediocris qualitatis, pessimè insuaves, pleraquè ut vera anachronisma habeam.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: The importance of audio

Postby Kyneto Valesio » Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:04 am

That there might be some technical flaws in Metrodorus' readings does not detract from their overall value! On that point (pronunciation) I am not prepared to argue because I am ignorant of some of those niceties. I will just speak for myself. I have used Evan's products in the past: parts of Adler, swallowing the dictionary, and some romantic poet - Keats ? Presently I am using the Corderius Latine-Anglice dialogues. These products are all very useful. In addition, to his own material, Evan also has recordings of a number of different folks reading poetry and what not. He is to be commended for all he has done and certainly doesn't deserve such names as "false prophet" or "con-man". I really don't understand the vituperation that is being heaped on the guy. Adrianus, would you prefer that Evan not post here? If that is the case, cheer up because maybe you are already on the verge of driving him away completely as it can't be that pleasant to be attacked so blatantly. It doesn't become you to act in this way. Your antipathy towards Evan's projects is misguided, overwrought, and even a little sadistic. False prophet indeed!

I
phpbb
Kyneto Valesio
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 214
Joined: Tue May 01, 2007 10:10 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: The importance of audio

Postby adrianus » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:25 pm

As I said already // Ut iam dixi
I checked back in Textkit. I've criticized Metrodorus's promotion of his recordings because they were published in a way that risked misleading the unsuspecting about his skills as a Latinist. I criticized his advertising about their suitability for achieving quick and easy fluency. I criticized the quality of the teaching materials he had authored. I criticized him for sloppy referencing. I criticized his site design. I criticized him for gathering information on his website for dating purposes (as he himself said). I criticized his promoting highly dubious (and that's putting it mildly) images in Textkit and arguing they were suitable for schoolchildren. Here is Metrodorus's own assessment of his character: "Vir et consilii magni et virtutis non sum" (Textkit, Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:54 am). And if Metrodorus ever did things better as a result of those criticisms, that has to be good. Funny enough, even though I don't like them, I don't think I've ever publicly criticized Metrodorus for the quality of his recordings. But I would rather listen to someone speaking who has got good latin!

Verificavi in hoc foro. Promulgationem impressionum sonituum Metrodori incusavi quae incuriosis clarè eius habilitatem humilem non declamaverunt. Assertiones seu praeconia etiam invitavi, quae de linguae volubilitate celere facileque dicunt. Qualitatem libellorum docendi quos scripsisti momordi. Et eius systematem negligens ad annotationem referendi. Et deformationem sitûs. Et collectionem datorum ad constituta romantica facienda (ut dixit Metrodorus). Et promulgationem imaginum eroticarum (et deteriùs) in hoc foro et apologiam discipulis unûs. Ecce quod dicit Metrodorus de personâ suâ: "Vir et consilii magni et virtutis non sum" (Textkit, Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:54 am). Si aliquod meliùs eveniit eâ ratione argumentorum illorum, bonus est eventus, nonné? At, nisi fallor, nunquam heic contra qualitatem impressionum sonituum arqui. Quod iocosum est quià, verum dicere, eam saepè non amo, et aliquem bonum latinistam auscultare malo.

He demanded a criticism of his readings. It was not a false criticism. Again, it was a challenge to his inflated claims. You may not care about such things, Kyneto. I do.
Ipse critica lectionum quaesivit. Non falsa dedi. Assertiones inflatas iterùm reprehendi. Fortassè ista, Kyneto, non curas. Curo.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: The importance of audio

Postby metrodorus » Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:58 pm

Adriane, I will carefully take note of your comments, and see if I agree, or if indeed, I am able to make the adjustments you suggest. Thank you for listening to me read.

That being said, it would have been wonderful, Adrianus, if you could have risen to the chance offered you to be professional, but even in your supposedly neutral assessment of my reading, you still managed to sprinkle a certain amount of ad hominem and highly subjective attack.

As you seem unable to resist making personal attacks, even when you are trying your utmost to be neutral, I have come to the conclusion that I am not going to lay a stumbling block before the blind, and will no longer do anything more than write this final letter, to antagonize you here.

Whatever you write as a reply, I will not respond to. This is my final communication here in textkit for the forseeable future. Why have I decided to do this? I am worried about textkit itself. I owe a debt of gratitude to textkit, and would not want to see it damaged by more of this nonsense.

All you will do, Adriane is totally poison the atmosphere here on textkit. So, to avoid the certainty that a wonderful web resource will be destroyed by your constant ad hominem attacks, I shall refrain from posting here.


I want to say thank you to textkit for inspiring me.
I run various Latin sites, including Schola and the Latinum YouTube channel - the main portal to these is http://latinum.org.uk
metrodorus
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 290
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 7:19 pm

Re: The importance of audio

Postby Essorant » Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:05 am

Why are you taking it so personally? Publishing any kind of work involves facing criticisms from certain people. It is part of life.
Essorant
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 282
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:35 pm
Location: Regina, SK; Canada

Re: The importance of audio

Postby cantator » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:22 pm

While I applaud the rationale and fact of Latinum I also believe that its recordings ought to be open to criticism, even severe criticism. I assume that's what the Comments buttons are for.

This morning I listened to some of the Swarthmore readings from Catullus. "Dismal" would be a kind review. "Sucks" would be more honest, though in fairness I find it hard to believe that some of those recordings were made as representative of reading Latin poetry. They sound more like demonstrations of principles of prosody.

Then I listened to the renowned Sonkowsky reading Catullus. "Pretty bad" would be a rave review. IMO the guy is over-rated. Btw, I would rate my own recordings on Latinum as "godawful", so don't think I consider myself much better than RS. However, I no longer read with the same pronunciation I used for those recordings, perhaps I should update them. Just as soon as I complete the other thousand projects I have going on now. :(

Adrianus's critique of your reading of the Pied Piper was spot-on. He identifies a number of idiosyncracies (though he omits your persistent use of -nn- for -gn-) that you might want to consider.

At least your reading and Sonkowsky's share a virtue I find quite valuable in the performance arts: Enthusiasm, lots of it. As a teacher I'll let some failings go by (for a while) as long as the student shows real involvement with the performance. Relatively minor faults in pronunciation can be corrected with a little practice, but learning to control and modulate expression in performance takes a lot of practice. So keep at it, stay focused, and bear in mind that not one member of Textkit has ever heard an ancient Roman speaking in vivo.
Similis sum folio de quo ludunt venti.
User avatar
cantator
Textkit Fan
 
Posts: 278
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 9:21 am
Location: NW Ohio USA

Re: The importance of audio

Postby adrianus » Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:03 pm

metrodorus wrote:I want to say thank you to textkit for inspiring me.

I was once a grammar-school teacher. A colleague used to regularly post on the staff noticeboard letters he received from a former pupil, writing from the French Foreign Legion. The ex-pupil would often repeat how he owed it all to his former teacher. There was no irony intended. [I've nothing against the legion, BTW. Quite a few times much earlier at a crossroads in my life, I had been in and out of their recruiting office in Marseilles. But I never told my parents!]

Olim ludimagister grammaticalis eram. Eis temporibus, collega epistulas à quodam discipulo veto et legionario Legionis Exterorum Gallicae scriptas tabulae operariis ostensivae assiduè affigebat. Usquè sine ironiâ clamabat exdiscipulus se fortunâ per illum magistrum frui. [Non adversus legionem dico, obiter. Alio tempore antehâc et ego Massiliae ad quadrivium vitae, creberrimè limen sedis ad conquisitionem legionis transivi. Atquin nequandò parentibus id fassus sum!]

Corrigendum. Non "liminem transivi" sed "limen transivi" (quòd neutrius generis est illud nomen). Gratias ob corrigendum, thesaure.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: The importance of audio

Postby vastor » Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:53 pm

I for one find latinum an indispensable tool for my autodidactic studies. Thank you evan.
vastor
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 99
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:36 pm
Location: england


Return to Learning Latin

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], Jandar and 95 guests

cron