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Perfect Pass Part with "esse"

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Re: Perfect Pass Part with "esse"

Postby oberon » Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:01 pm

adrianus wrote:We were talking about this:
De hâc tractabamus:
It's to do with the perfect passive participle and whether it can be used with esse to indicate the present



No, we aren't, as I already admitted when I started this again (and I think earlier, but I am not sure) that I was wrong and the sum + perfect participle does not have to be taken as a passive. Moreover, I also stated that context matters a great deal (yes, even with factus, a, um.)

And, from a statistical machine-translation point of view without context, you are right, provided we understand "best" as indicating "greatest likelihood of accuracy".
E conspectu traductionis instrumentalis et sine contextu, rectè dicis si "optimè" ut "statisticè credibilissimè" legimus.


It's not just probability of accuracy I am concerned with but the fact that certain verbs lend themselves to the passive construction rather than predicate adjective construction more than others, and that facio is one of these.
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Re: Perfect Pass Part with "esse"

Postby adrianus » Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:21 pm

Damn! I thought I saw an end!
Damnationem! Ferè finitum est, imaginatus sum!
oberon wrote:It's not just probability of accuracy I am concerned with but the fact that certain verbs lend themselves to the passive construction rather than predicate adjective construction more than others, and that facio is one of these.

From a methodological point of view, It would seem you put the cart before the horse by declaring the "fact" of a tendency as separate from probability.
De methodologiâ, mihi videtur, plaustrum ante caballum habes, in dicendo ut inclinatio separatim ab indiciis statisticis est factum.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Perfect Pass Part with "esse"

Postby oberon » Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:23 am

adrianus wrote:From a methodological point of view, It would seem you put the cart before the horse by declaring the "fact" of a tendency as separate from probability.


Let's put it this way. If we examine linguistic evidence and research from multiple approaches within linguistic disciplines (case grammar, cognitive grammar, construction grammar, radical construction grammar, role and reference grammar, etc), we find that all those approaches which examine agentivity and transitivity show a scale of agentivity, and that certain verbs lend themselves to passivity in adjectival form (participles) rather than more "pure" predicate adjectives.

Now, this does NOT mean that my hypothesis is right about the specific clause in question. Certainly, the latin verb facio has a semantic range greater than the english "make." However, (and I wish I could recall where) I DO recall a study on the tendency towards proto-agentivity of "make" verbs cross-linguistically.

But again, this is a question of translation. The english "make" IS more towards the "agentive" scale than "divide." Passive clauses differ from predicate adjectives in the way they evaluate the agent component. Now, context certainly can change things. But cross-linguistically, verbs which are more prototypically agentive lend themselves to containing agentive meaning, which in the passive form is downgraded or even left out. However, it is still a component.

Now, in the clause under consideration, when translating you have a verb meaing create/make/form/fashion/etc. It is among the most animate/agentive type of verbs one can have. When use predicatively with a "to be" the verb DOES have a tendency towards passivity.
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Re: Perfect Pass Part with "esse"

Postby adrianus » Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:39 am

oberon wrote:However, what is wrong with catena faciēns ex ferro ? "The chain being made (presently) from iron?" It is similar to catena e ferro fit only in the latter, the "making" could take place in the immediate present, or be construed as a general statement the chain (gnomic present)...
You question was "how do you say 'the chain is made out of iron" in latin?" One of my answers is to avoid using the verb to be and use a participle instead, i.e. "the chain being made out of iron." The point is that a particular syntactical construction in english, when translated into another language like latin, might be best translated by changing the construction. Here, rather than use a "is made" i.e. a predicate adjective construction, I suggest that, if a latin speaker were trying to translate the english "the chain is made out of iron" they would use a participial construction rather than a predicate one.

Regarding translating "the chain is made out of iron" by "catena faciēns ex ferro", my advice to all reading is not to try that at home.
In re vertendi è sermonibus anglicis "the chain is made out of iron" in sermones latinos per "catena faciēns ex ferro", consilium meum omnibus hîc legentibus est hoc: sic domi ne feceritis.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Perfect Pass Part with "esse"

Postby Swth\r » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:46 am

As I have understood (and if not wrong) the use of perfect tense in Latin:

facta est = was made, when it reffers to past, as an action simply occured, not extended somehow to the present.
facta est = has been made, when it reffers to an action made in the past, but continuing it's existance up to now.

In the example "Gallia divisa est", because of the use of "incolunt" in the period, which is present, the perfect is reffering to something that still exists. So "is divided" may be a correct translation.
In the first example, perhaps either translation is correct, depending on context parameters.
Dives qui sapiens est...
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Re: Perfect Pass Part with "esse"

Postby Swth\r » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:51 am

Nooooo....

"Catena faciens ex ferro" means "Chain MAKING ex ferro" and an object is missing. Faciens reffers to present, nevertheless it is TRANSITIVE and ACTIVE in meaning, it has nothing to do with FIO. Can you say: "Catena FACIT ex ferro"? Noway... It means "The chain makes/ is making from iron... "
Dives qui sapiens est...
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