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Issues translating a Latin Cantate [Nascere Diue Puellule]

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Issues translating a Latin Cantate [Nascere Diue Puellule]

Postby Eriol » Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:56 am

Saluete,

A friend of mine, who's a singer, asked me to translate into French, Bassani's Cantata "Nascere Diue Puellule".
I've been through most of it, but i fail finding in my dictionnary some words and making sense of it. I guess it's because it's ecclesiastic Latin and my dictionary a classical one ; plus the fact that we seldom go through this kind of texts during our studies.

Here is the text :

Cantata per il santissimo Natale : Nascere dive puellule - G.B Bassani

Nascere dive puellule, amor tenellule, de cœlo propera.
Jam terra germinat Nazareum flosculum,
Et bella terminat dat pacis osculum, spiritus opera.

O amor, o immensus amor.
O gigas pupule, a summo cœlo egressio tua
Et occursus tuus usque ad summum ejus.

Dissipate, consternate, umbræ Ditis, a volate.
Justitiæ sol jam oritur, trafficta mors jam moritur,
Gloria divino numini, cœlicolæ, cantate.

O flava pacis, vernaculæ ætas,
Errumpunt fontes pinguis olivae, rident prata,
Florent montes, exspectatus, suspiratus Dei filius
Tandem venit et subvenit plebi suæ.

Resonate, cœli lætantes, nato Deo, mentes amantes,
Hymnos canite suaves.
Ecce venit liberator, natus vagit reparator,
Nostras ferens culpas graves.

Alleluja.


And my translation so far :

Nais divin petit enfant, tendre amour, hâte-toi <de venir> du ciel.
Déjà la terre porte la jeune fleur de Nazareth,
Et il fait cesser les guerres, donne le baiser de paix, œuvres de l'Esprit.

Ô Amour, ô amour immense.
Ô petit garçon géant, ta sortie du haut des Cieux
Et ton retour jusqu'à son sommet.

Dissipez-vous, égarez-vous, ombres de Pluton, †...†
Déjà, le soleil de justice naît, déjà la mort †...† est morte,
†...†, habitants des Cieux, chantez.

Ô flamme de paix, âge †...†
Que des fontaines jaillissent des huiles grasses, que les plaines résonnent de rires,
Que les montagnes verdissent, celui qu'on attend et pour qui on soupire, le fils de Dieu
Vient enfin et se présente à son peuple.

Résonnez, bienheureux des Cieux, Dieu est né, esprits aimant,
Chantez vos doux hymnes.
Voici venu le libérateur, le Sauveur nouveau né crie,
lui qui porte nos lourds péchés.


So my issues are :
1) I can't understand the locution "a volate" ;
2) I can't find the adjective "traffictus, a, um" anywhere (neither in my dictionaries nor on the internet) ;
3) I can't understand the construction of "Gloria diuino numine", i thought that it could be an absolute ablative, but can't make any sense of it ;
4) Can't find a suitable meaning for "uernaculæ" to which i'm tempted to give the meaning of "brotherhood" somehow but it's quite far from the original meaning of uernaculus.

So if any of you could help me in any way with this tricky little text, it'd be delighted. Obviously, if you find any mistranslation in my text, feel free to tell, i'll correct it accordingly.

Thanks,

E.
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Re: Issues translating a Latin Cantate [Nascere Diue Puellule]

Postby adrianus » Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:05 pm

Salve eriol

I would say the following // dicam haec:

1. "a volante" [?] "by him/his flying", vel "a volente" {?} "by him/his willing [it]", sed melius est hoc, ut opinor: "avolate!" = "begone!/vanish!"
2. "trafficta" = "transfingo -ere -finxi -fictus" > "transficta" = "death transformed/transfashioned"
3. "glory to the divine will" "glory to god's will"
4. "O golden age of maids, of peace" [strictly // strictim "O golden age of the household slave, of peace" "âge d'or de bonnes, de paix"]
Last edited by adrianus on Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Issues translating a Latin Cantate [Nascere Diue Puellule]

Postby Eriol » Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:39 pm

Salue Adriane,

I wish i could express my gratitude in latin as well as you do, but i unfortunately can't :(
So it'll be in English only : Thank you so much !!!

adrianus wrote:1. "a volante" [?] "by him/his flying", vel "a volente" {?} "by him/his willing [it]", sed melius est hoc, ut opinor: "avolate!" = "begone!/vanish!"


Your guess is, i think too, the best. I didn't think to link the preverb and the verb itself, but it perfectly makes sense.

4. "O golden age of maids, of peace" [strictly // strictim "O golden age of the household slave, of peace" "âge d'or de bonnes, de paix"]


This last bit still seems tricky.
I now understand pretty well the hyperbaton of "flaua ætas" and can link one of the genitives to the nominative group, but i can't understand the link between the first and second genitives.
Do they both complete "ætas", or is there another link between "pax" and "uernacula" which i fail to see/understand ?
Lastly, why is there a coma between those two words ? Is it to show that those words are not linked together but to the nominative group, or to emphasise the link or to stress the fact that the construction is the same twice but omitted for the second word, i.e. the original wording would have been "o flaua ætas pacis et <flaua ætas> uernaculae" ?

Thanks again,

E.
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Re: Issues translating a Latin Cantate [Nascere Diue Puellule]

Postby Eriol » Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:42 pm

By the way, the translation is now as such :

Nais divin petit enfant, tendre amour, hâte-toi <de venir> du ciel.
Déjà la terre porte la jeune fleur de Nazareth,
Et il fait cesser les guerres, donne le baiser de paix, œuvres de l'Esprit.

Ô Amour, ô amour immense.
Ô petit garçon géant, ta sortie du haut des Cieux
Et ton retour jusqu'à son sommet.

Dissipez-vous, égarez-vous, ombres de Pluton, envolez-vous !
Déjà, le soleil de justice naît, déjà la mort transfigurée est morte,
Gloire à la puissance divine, habitants des Cieux, chantez.

Ô âge d'or de la paix <et> des servantes,
Que des fontaines jaillissent des huiles grasses, que les plaines résonnent de rires,
Que les montagnes verdissent, celui qu'on attend et pour qui on soupire, le fils de Dieu
Vient enfin et se présente à son peuple.

Résonnez, bienheureux des Cieux, Dieu est né, esprits aimant,
Chantez vos doux hymnes.
Voici venu le libérateur, le Sauveur nouveau né crie,
lui qui porte nos lourds péchés.
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Re: Issues translating a Latin Cantate [Nascere Diue Puellule]

Postby adrianus » Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:47 pm

Eriol wrote:or to stress the fact that the construction is the same twice but omitted for the second word, i.e. the original wording would have been "o flaua ætas pacis et <flaua ætas> uernaculae" ?

This, I think, and as in English or French: "A golden age of maids, of peace". // Ut hîc dicis, puto, sicut et anglicè et gallicè.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Issues translating a Latin Cantate [Nascere Diue Puellule]

Postby Eriol » Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:55 pm

adrianus wrote:
Eriol wrote:or to stress the fact that the construction is the same twice but omitted for the second word, i.e. the original wording would have been "o flaua ætas pacis et <flaua ætas> uernaculae" ?

This, I think, and as in English or French: "A golden age of maids, of peace". // Ut hîc dicis, puto, sicut et anglicè et gallicè.


Indeed it can be done, yet in French we'd need to add a propper conjunction in this case otherwise it'd almost be a anacoluthon and would not be allowed. That's why i inserted <et> in my translation :)

Thank you again for the time and effort you gave.

E.
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Re: Issues translating a Latin Cantate [Nascere Diue Puellule]

Postby adrianus » Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:10 pm

Such a nice word "anacoluthon". Shame it's to be avoided.
Quam bellum vocabulum! Miserum quod evitanda anacoluthia.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Issues translating a Latin Cantate [Nascere Diue Puellule]

Postby adrianus » Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:30 pm

Doesn't your friend want to sing the lines? What about scansion? Or will your translation be for reading and comprehension only?
Nonnè amicus tuus versus cantare vult? Quid de scansione? Vel proderitne ad finem legendi intelligendique tua traductio.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Issues translating a Latin Cantate [Nascere Diue Puellule]

Postby Eriol » Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:49 pm

adrianus wrote:Doesn't your friend want to sing the lines? What about scansion? Or will your translation be for reading and comprehension only?
Nonnè amicus tuus versus cantare vult? Quid de scansione? Vel proderitne ad finem legendi intelligendique tua traductio.


There must be at least a pianist accompanying him so as for the scansion, the music must bear the rhythm. I think he needed the translation to know what he is saying in order to pause correctly between semantic groups. He may need the tonic accent though but didn't ask for it, i'll tell him if needed ;)
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Re: Issues translating a Latin Cantate [Nascere Diue Puellule]

Postby adrianus » Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:46 pm

I listened to it here // Illam cantatam ab hôc loco auscultavi: http://new.music.yahoo.com/giovanni-battista-bassani/
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Issues translating a Latin Cantate [Nascere Diue Puellule]

Postby adrianus » Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:43 pm

I think your French translation is excellent. "Erumpunt" etc. are just plain indicative, of course, and coelicolae = "les anges" ou "chrétiens fideles" also. I think that to drop a copulative "et" in French, substituting a comma, when it doesn't cause an ambiguity in grammatical structure isn't an example of anacoluthia. It's OK for a list of similar things, for pacing of delivery.

"Ô âge d'or de la paix et des servantes" sure, and NOT "Ô âge d'or de la paix, des servantes", but isn't "Ô âge d'or, de paix, de servantes" OK?

Traductio tua in sermones gallicas perbona mihi videtur. "Errumpunt" et alia verba eiusdem sententiae indicativo modo sunt, ut jam scis. Meâ sententiâ, "et" conjunctione gallicâ omissâ et commâ substitutâ, nisi structura grammatica sic ambigua fiat, anacoluthon non est. Licet quoàd seriem verborum seu collocationum similum, quoàd celeritatem loquendi.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Issues translating a Latin Cantate [Nascere Diue Puellule]

Postby Eriol » Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:01 am

adrianus wrote:i]Erumpunt[/i]" etc. are just plain indicative, of course


Thanks for the correction, i have to correct my subjunctives then into indicatives in French too then ;)

I think that to drop a copulative "et" in French, substituting a comma, when it doesn't cause an ambiguity in grammatical structure isn't an example of anacoluthia. It's OK for a list of similar things, for pacing of delivery.

"Ô âge d'or de la paix et des servantes" sure, and NOT "Ô âge d'or de la paix, des servantes", but isn't "Ô âge d'or, de paix, de servantes" OK?


The second way of translating is too abrupt to be left as such. The third is definitely impossible in French ; we can't separate grammatical groups as a nominal group "âge d'or" and its complements "de paix/de servante". That's because of this "law" that the copula is highly recommended between the two completive groups.

Now an orthographical question, regularly erumpo is written with a single "r" : is it a mistake to put two, as the text does, or is it an orthographical evolution (like in transficta > trafficta) ?

coelicolae = "les anges" ou "chrétiens fideles"


In my translation i preferred trying to keep the two roots of the verb cælus+colo, hence my translation in "habitants des cieux" ("skies inhabitants"). Since i drew this rule for this first word, i had to apply it to the second locution with cælus some lines further cœli lætantes.

I'll also correct florent in "fleurissent" ("bear flowers") instead of "verdissent" ("become green"), since the root of the verb is the one of "flower".

The text corrected :

Nais divin petit enfant, tendre amour, hâte-toi <de venir> du ciel.
Déjà la terre porte la jeune fleur de Nazareth,
Et il fait cesser les guerres, donne le baiser de paix, œuvres de l'Esprit.

Ô Amour, ô amour immense.
Ô petit garçon géant, ta sortie du haut des Cieux
Et ton retour jusqu'à son sommet.

Dissipez-vous, égarez-vous, ombres de Pluton, envolez-vous !
Déjà, le soleil de justice naît, déjà la mort transfigurée est morte,
Gloire à la puissance divine, habitants des Cieux, chantez.

Ô âge d'or de la paix <et> des servantes,
Des fontaines jaillissent des huiles grasses, les plaines résonnent de rires,
les montagnes fleurissent, celui qu'on attend et pour qui on soupire, le fils de Dieu
Vient enfin et se présente à son peuple.

Résonnez, bienheureux des Cieux, Dieu est né, esprits aimant,
Chantez vos doux hymnes.
Voici venu le libérateur, le Sauveur nouveau né crie,
lui qui porte nos lourds péchés.
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Re: Issues translating a Latin Cantate [Nascere Diue Puellule]

Postby adrianus » Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:04 am

Eriol wrote:The third is definitely impossible in French ; we can't separate grammatical groups as a nominal group "âge d'or" and its complements "de paix/de servante". That's because of this "law" that the copula is highly recommended between the two completive groups.

Now an orthographical question, regularly erumpo is written with a single "r" : is it a mistake to put two, as the text does, or is it an orthographical evolution (like in transficta > trafficta) ?

I was thinking (latterly but not originally, it is true) not of a nominal group + 2 things, but of a noun + three things: 1. d'or, 2. de paix, 3. de servante—"O age of gold, of peace, of servants" (as "de moi, de toi, de lui"—"Il l'a dit, répond Augustin, mais de moi, de toi, de tel autre." http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=LNYj72tmZ00C&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38&dq=de+moi+de+toi+de+lui&source=bl&ots=7V-3AXyNFu&sig=LlmonYeNXnhhoPXZ3uZ6Dqhbljk&hl=en&ei=xDPkSu6fONSr4QaJ0e39AQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CB0Q6AEwBDge#v=onepage&q=de%20moi%20de%20toi%20de%20lui&f=false), but that's interesting if it's impossible to speak so. Thanks. And your translation of this is indeed spot on, in my opinion.
Id mihi curae est. Gratias tibi, Eriol, et macte!

Often a short vowel is substituted for a long vowel and the following consonant doubled: ērumpo -> errumpo.
Saepè vocalis longae loco est brevis cum anceps fit consonans consequa.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Issues translating a Latin Cantate [Nascere Diue Puellule]

Postby adrianus » Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:08 pm

Aliquantulùm hoc me vexat: "Des fontaines jaillissent des huiles grasses" pro "Errumpunt fontes pinguis olivae".
I think "Fountains/springs for rich/fertile olive trees [of the rich olive tree] burst forth"
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Issues translating a Latin Cantate [Nascere Diue Puellule]

Postby Eriol » Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:40 pm

adrianus wrote:I was thinking (latterly but not originally, it is true) not of a nominal group + 2 things, but of a noun + three things: 1. d'or, 2. de paix, 3. de servante—"O age of gold, of peace, of servants" (as "de moi, de toi, de lui"—"Il l'a dit, répond Augustin, mais de moi, de toi, de tel autre." [...]), but that's interesting if it's impossible to speak so. Thanks. And your translation of this is indeed spot on, in my opinion.
Id mihi curae est. Gratias tibi, Eriol, et macte!


You're right indeed, it's one noun and three complements, i was too hasty to analyse the group...

Often a short vowel is substituted for a long vowel and the following consonant doubled: ērumpo -> errumpo.
Saepè vocalis longae loco est brevis cum anceps fit consonans consequa.


Indeed, that's a logical compensation, yet, it seems to me that it's not very "classical" (at least according to my dictionary - 'Gaffiot')

adrianus wrote:Aliquantulùm hoc me vexat: "Des fontaines jaillissent des huiles grasses" pro "Errumpunt fontes pinguis olivae".
I think "Fountains for rich/fertile olive trees [of the rich olive tree] burst forth"


Here again, you're much right and my translation is approximative for i didn't analyse well the words ;(
The group pinguis oliuæ is a complement of fontes and errumpunt its verb. The translation must then be "fountains of rich oils burst out", i.e. in French "des fontaines d'huile grasse jaillissent".
I understand that whole strophe a little bit in the spirit of Virgil's IVth Eclogue (esp. vv. 18-25). If we are to follow the NT and the coming of the wise-men to Christ bearing presents, including myrrha (essential element to make the anointing oil - Cf. Mat. II, 11). I see in the whole passage an idea of wealth and peace coming along with Christ, just like what Virgil wrote (vv. 15-17):

ille deum vitam accipiet divisque videbit
permixtos heroas et ipse videbitur illis
pacatumque reget patriis virtutibus orbem
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Re: Issues translating a Latin Cantate [Nascere Diue Puellule]

Postby adrianus » Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:50 pm

Eriol wrote:it seems to me that it's not very "classical" (at least according to my dictionary - 'Gaffiot')

As you say, not classical but later, and practical for ensuring syllable length at word starts. Bassani's latin is 17th-century, of course.
Non classicum sed serius, ut dicis, et ad longinguitatem syllabae primae servandam utile. Ad saeculum septimum decimum attinet latinum Antoni Bassani.

I have the Gaffiot de pôche, not Le Grand Gaffiot, so I don't know what the Grand Gaffiot says, but such late spelling variations don't always get mentioned.
Versionem dictionarii Gaffiot manuariam non magnam habeo. Eâ ratione, ignoro quod dicit Magnum Dictionarium Felicis Gaffiot, at tales orthographiae variationes serae saepè omittuntur.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Issues translating a Latin Cantate [Nascere Diue Puellule]

Postby adrianus » Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:56 am

As one might expect and as you said, just the "erumpo" spelling is in Le Grand Gaffiot which I found online here. Another handy dictionary accessible online.

[url]http://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Dictionnaire_Gaffiot_Latin-Français_1934.djvu/601[/url]

Ut praestoleris, solum "ērumpo" in primo magni dictionarii de Gaffiot editione, quod hîc inveni,—nec tu aliter dixisti. Aliud dictionarium habile quod per interrete patet.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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