Textkit Logo

Salvete among other things...

Here's where you can discuss all things Latin. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get translation help and more!

Moderator: thesaurus

Salvete among other things...

Postby Einhard » Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:30 pm

Salvete omnes,

Or should that be Salvete quosque? Or perhaps I have to put the final word of the latter in the Voc plural, as Salvete quique? What exactly is the best way to say "Greetings all" in Latin??

Anyway, moving on to the main point of this post, I have a few questions re a translation from the Loci Antiqui, namely no. 6 "Cicero on the Value...of Friendship".

Firstly, there's the line: Sentio equidem, excepta sapientia, nihil melius homini a deis immortalibus datum est. I know what Cicero means to say here, but what exactly is the nature of datum esse? It looks to me like they're seperate from one another, that the former is a perf pass part, with "esse" indicating the indirect statement. Thus "I feel indeed, wisdom excepted, that nothing better has been given (lit. having been given/given) by the immortal Gods to man" Am I correct in this interpretation of the nature of the two forms?

Also, there are two instances in the passage where "est" seems to be implied with a comparative, rather than being actually present. Thus: Quid vero stultius quam cetera parare quae parantur pecunia...". I've included the missing "est" in my translation: "What truly is more foolish than to get other things which are obtained through money..." This is the first time I've noticed this type of construct. Should the "is" be inserted as I have done?

Thanks in advance...
User avatar
Einhard
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 147
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:05 pm
Location: Hibernia

Re: Salvete among other things...

Postby adrianus » Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:22 pm

"Salvete omnes", Einharde

Yes, "datum est" is the perfect passive indicative of the verb "dare", where the past participle agrees with the subject (here neuter "nihil"). They're not separate, "datum" and "est"; they're joined in a verbal form. Unless I'm wrong, Cicero himself says neither "est" nor "esse" in that sentence but actually omits the "esse".
Passiva "dare" verbi vox praeterito perfecto tempore indicativo modo per "datum est" sonitur, ubi participium cum subjecto (hîc "nihil" enim neutrius generis) congruit. Non separata, jugata ut forma verbalis sunt "datum" et "est". Nisi fallor, Cicero ipse in illâ sententiâ "esse" non scribit sed verò omittit.

The omission of a word (a verb or whatever) that's readily understood is pretty common. The grammatical term is ellipsis.
Vulgatius [est] omittere vocabulum cuiusvis generis si manifestum [est] illud vocabulum quamvis omissum. Ellipsis grammaticè vocatur.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm

Re: Salvete among other things...

Postby Rindu » Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:25 pm

Yes, 'esse' is a very common verb to leave out. As pointed out, the original Cicero quote was

haud scio an excepta sapientia nil unquam melius homini sit a dis immortalibus datum,

leaving 'est' out of the picture.
Rindu
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 3:34 pm
Location: Greensboro, NC

Re: Salvete among other things...

Postby Einhard » Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:23 pm

Thanks for the replies, but looking over my original post, it appears I mis-typed the quotation. "Datum est" would make sense to me as a perfect passive indicitative, but the passage in question actually has "datum esse". Is the "esse" in the infinitive merely to indicate the indirect statement?
User avatar
Einhard
Textkit Member
 
Posts: 147
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:05 pm
Location: Hibernia

Re: Salvete among other things...

Postby adrianus » Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:05 pm

Einhard wrote:Is the "esse" in the infinitive merely to indicate the indirect statement?

Yes. Ita est.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
adrianus
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:45 pm


Return to Learning Latin

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 42 guests