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summa

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summa

Postby little flower » Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:58 pm

est naturale homlnl (it is natural to man)
hi again
this phrase comes from the summa of st thomas (treatise on sacred doctrine, article 9).When i run the word naturale through l&s it gives the analysis as adj sing' nom/vov/acc neut.
When i do the same with the pocket oxford latin analyser it gives in addition adj sing abl mas/fem/neut.
Which analysis is more correct or are they both so?

thanks
little flower.
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Re: summa

Postby modus.irrealis » Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:42 am

As far as I know adjectives like "naturalis" are i-stems so the ablative sing. can only be "naturali". See A&G: "Adjectives of two and three terminations are true i-stems and hence retain in the ablative singular -ī". Perhaps there's variation, but I suspect the oxford analyser is overgeneralizing since some third declension adjectives do have an ablative ending in -e.
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Re: summa

Postby Einhard » Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:15 pm

Yeah 'twould appear Oxford's wrong in this instance. "naturale" is nom/acc/voc neuter sing.
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Re: summa

Postby pheriwinkle » Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:08 am

You should totally consider using Latin WORDS ... from this site:

http://users.erols.com/whitaker/words.htm

Here's the output from it for "naturale." I totally find it useful when reading when I forget the dictionary headword form of a verb or something since it'll parse any Latin for you as it looks it up, so you can just type whatever you see in the text if the dictionary form doesn't come to you immediately.

=>naturale

natural.e ADJ 3 2 NOM S N POS
natural.e ADJ 3 2 VOC S N POS
natural.e ADJ 3 2 ABL S X POS
natural.e ADJ 3 2 ACC S N POS
naturalis, naturalis, naturale ADJ [XXXAO]
natural, normal, typical, characteristic; innate, inherent; physical (science);
natural; (not adoptive, parents); (parts of body/genitals, excretory outlets);
natural.e N 3 3 LOC S M
natural.e N 3 3 DAT S M Early
natural.e N 3 3 ABL S M
naturalis, naturalis N (3rd) M [ESXDX] Later lesser
physical/natural scientist; physicist; natural philosopher;
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Re: summa

Postby adrianus » Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:23 am

Despite the many omissions and small mistakes in Whitaker, his Words program is really handy, and he includes many rare or exceptional forms, even "naturale" in the ablative.

Quamvis multitudinem detractionum vitiorumque contineat, programma Words nomine de Whitaker perutile est, quod perraras quidem formas includit, sicut "naturale" pro ablativo casu.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: summa

Postby modus.irrealis » Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:53 pm

"Naturale" then can be used as an ablative? Are there any attestations (of it or a similar word), because I couldn't find anything when I looked it up and I would say that Words overgeneralizes in terms of what forms are possible -- it recognizes -e as a possible ablative form for every third declension adjective I tried. The Perseus parser though seems to be too restrictive because it doesn't even recognize certain of the alternate forms listed in A&G, e.g. it parses "veteri" only as a dative. I use through Diogenes so it's funny too because in the L&S entry for "vetus" right under it, you read "abl. regularly, vetere; but veteri," followed by a bunch of references.
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Re: summa

Postby adrianus » Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:25 pm

A&G, §116 wrote:NOTE.—Adjectives of two and three terminations sometimes have an ablative in -e in poetry, rarely in prose.

Gavin Betts, Teach Yourself Latin, 1986, p.58, note 3, wrote:I-stem adjectives have an ablative singular in -e when used as nouns...
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: summa

Postby modus.irrealis » Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:35 pm

I was reading the A&G online and missed the footnotes :oops:. The most in-depth treatment I could find online was in German: http://books.google.ca/books?id=ym0PAAA ... q=&f=false
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