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Translations

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Translations

Postby Einhard » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:07 pm

Salvete.

Just need some clarification on two Latin sentences.
First off: Dico te, Pyrre, Romanos posse vincere.

I have it as "I tell you Pyrrhus, that the Romans can win". The key has " I say that you, Pyrrhus, can conquer the Romans".

Can it be both? Or would my version necessitate tibi rather than te?


Also, Aiunt enim multum legendum esse, non multa

I take it that this is an exhortation to read more, in terms of quality, rather than quantity. Something along the lines of,
"Indeed that much ought to be read, not many".

Thanks in advance...
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Re: Translations

Postby adrianus » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:31 am

Salve Einharde

"tibi"

In the neutral word order, the subject precedes the object, as (happily) in "subjectum objectum antecedit"!
Secundum ordinem vocabulorum neutralem, subjectum objectum antecedit,—quod dictum in ipso rem illuminat!

I think your translation is spot on, or "For they say it is recommended to read a great deal, [but of only] a few things", as Chairman Mao also famously proposed w.r.t. the Red Book!
De "Aiunt enim multum legendum esse, non multa", ità est ut anglicè dicis, non dubito, et nonnè eandem rem insigniter dixit Mao Magister super suo Libro Rubro!
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: Translations

Postby Swth\r » Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:10 pm

Einhard wrote:Dico te, Pyrre, Romanos posse vincere.

I have it as "I tell you Pyrrhus, that the Romans can win". The key has " I say that you, Pyrrhus, can conquer the Romans".

Can it be both? Or would my version necessitate tibi rather than te?


Syntactically it can be either:

I say that you, Pyrrus, can win the Romans

or:

I say that Romans can win you, Pyrrus.

The first is prefered because of the "default" syntax SUBJECT-OBJECT VERB. For emphasis it could be of course the second option.

As you said, "tibi" instead of "te" is needed for the construction "I tell you... " (as the indirect object).

Einhard wrote:Aiunt multum legendum esse, non multa.


You understood it correctly!
Dives qui sapiens est...
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Re: Translations

Postby adrianus » Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:22 pm

Here's a relevant passage from Priscian, with (an attempted) translation.
Ecce locus aptus apud Priscianum, quem verto (saltem id facere conor).
De Ordinatione Verbi", Prisciani Institutiones , liber octavus decimus. http://kaali.linguist.jussieu.fr/CGL/text.jsp?id=T43, Priscian wrote:omnia uerba transitiua uel genetiuo uel datiuo uel accusatiuo uel ablatiuo adiunguntur, ut egeo tui, insidior tibi, metuo te, fruor illa re. ergo si coniungantur duo uerba, quorum alterum sit infinitum, eosdem casus asciscentia, fit dubitatio, ut misereri tui eget animus mei; cum enim utrumque uerbum genetiuo soleat iungi, dubium est, cuius animus misereatur uel egeat. similiter per datiuos male dicere tibi placet mihi et per accusatiuos cupio te uincere me et per ablatiuos dignor gloria potiri laude. dubium est enim, cum utrique casus similes sint et utrique uerbo congrue possint aptari, quis cui reddatur. et aptius quidem est priori casui prius sociari uerbum. sed auctores frequentissime hyperbatis, id est transitionibus, utuntur, ut: «aio, te, Aeacida, Romanos uincere posse»; est enim ordo [te Aeacida] Romani te possunt uincere quod et naturaliter passiones secundae sunt actionum et actio in Romanis, passio uero in Pyrrho significatur. sed aptissimum maxime fuit responso, etiam in confusione ordinis propriam oraculi obliquitatem seruare; quamuis et apud omnes auctores huiuscemodi figura latissime pateat.

All transitive verbs take either the genitive, dative, accusative or ablative, as "I need you, I lie in wait for you, I fear you, I love that". So if two verbs are linked, where one is an infinitive, both taking the same case, ambiguity comes about, as in "misereri tui eget animus mei" [1]: so since indeed either verb typically may be connected to the genitive, it is unclear who is "forgiving" or "inclined". Similarly, regarding the datives in "male dicere tibi placet mihi" [2] and the accusatives in "cupio te vincere me" [3] and the ablatives in "dignor gloria potiri laude" [4], it is not clear what belongs to what, since each case is the same and each case could be attached to a congruent verb. And certainly it is more fitting for the first verb [in the sequence] to be associated with the first case word [in the same sequence], but authors frequently transpose, or shift, words, as in, "Aio, te, Aeacida, Romanos vincere posse", in other words ‘Romani te possunt vincere’, which besides meaning the favorable occurrence of actions and action against the Romans, really means an outcome against Pyrrhus. But, although the form is very widely known in the works of all authors of that sort, as a response this one was most particularly suitable to safeguard, indeed, the prophecy's characteristic ambiguity in a confused word-order.


[1] "I am not inclined to forgive you" et "You are not inclined to forgive me"
[2] "I like speaking ill of you" et "You like speaking ill of me"
[3] "I wish you to beat me" et "I wish that I beat you"
[4] "Acquiring glory I consider praiseworthy" et "Acquiring praise I consider a worthy ambition"
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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