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"datas esse"

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"datas esse"

Postby Einhard » Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:17 pm

Salvete!

Having a moment of brain freeze here, and need to clarify something. In the following sentence,

Indroducti autem Galli dixerunt sibi litteras ad suam gentem ab Lentulo datas esse,

I presume that "datas esse"is an imperfect infinitive passive, and linked to "litteras". Thus, the sentence would translate as,

Morever, the Gauls, having been introduced, said for themselves that a letter had been given to their nation by Lentulus.

Do I presume correctly? And if so, does that mean that certain infinitives can be declined?

Thanks,

Einhard.
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Re: "datas esse"

Postby adrianus » Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:33 pm

Salve Einharde
"datus -a -um esse" = perfect passive infinitive, where the participle declines as an adjective // perfecto tempore praeterito vocis passivae modus infinitivus est, in quo participium adjectivum flectitur.

"...said that a letter to their nation had been given to them by Lentulus."
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: "datas esse"

Postby amans » Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:30 am

Salvete Einharde et Adriane

As Adrianus has already pointed out, datas esse is indeed a passive perfect infinitive. :D The syntax here, I would add to clarify the link between litteras and datas esse, is an accusativum cum infinitivo which is caused by dixerunt: The accusative is litteras and the infinitive is datas esse. As the infinitive is a passive perfect infinitive, there need indeed, Einharde, be congruence between participle and accusative.

The imperfect future active infitive requires that you decline the participle, too, by the way:

dicit eos venturos esse

I hope this helps.
Last edited by amans on Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "datas esse"

Postby Einhard » Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:31 pm

Well thanks for that people. Much obliged as always. The imperfect part was a typo on my part. Just to get it absolutely straight though, the inifinitive can, in certain instances, be declined? Now that I think about it, it makes sense, but it hadn't occurred to me before now.

Thanks again,

Einhard.
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Re: "datas esse"

Postby ptolemyauletes » Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:11 pm

Yes and no. Technically no.
laudare, laudari, laudavisse cannot be declined. These are infinitives.
laudatus esse and laudaturus esse can be declined. These are not technically infinitives, but they do the job in place of forms that do not exist in Latin.

My Latin professor explained it like this.
laudatus = having been praised. It is a participle.
est = is. It is a verb.
servus laudatus est. = The slave is having been praised. He is a praised slave. Therefore the slave has been praised.
est is the verb, laudatus is a participle. Latin combines the two to create a perfect passive verb, something that does not actually exist in LAtin on its own. est is in the present tense, but the perfect participle draws the whole thing into a perfect tense.

Likewise with infinitives.
dominus dixit servum laudatum esse. = The master said the slave to be having been praised. The master said the slave is a praised slave. Therefore the master said that the slave was praised, has been praised, etc.

Hope this helps.
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Re: "datas esse"

Postby quickly » Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:38 am

I am having trouble with your explanation. The Latin participle is a type of verbal which can be used substantively, adjectivally, or verbally. Because the participle is used in compound tenses, including the perfect passive, I don't think it functions as you say.

So, because the perfect passive participle of dare is datus, -a, um, and the perfect passive infinitive is a compound of the participle and sum, you end up with datus, -a, -um esse as the perfect passive infinitive. The participle still remains a verbal, and must agree with the subject of the clause; sum is still a verb, and must agree with the subject of the verb. So:

[AGENT [PERF PASS PART introducti (...)] Galli] dixerunt ... [THEME litteras [PP ad suam gentem]] [AGENT ab Lentulo] [[PERF PASS 3RD PL datas [INF esse]] [PP sibi]]
"Morever, the Gauls, having been introduced, said that the letter to their nation had been given to them by Lentulus."

The reason I disagree with ptolemy is that the infinitive and perfect passive aren't translated "literally," as their formation indicates that they are merely compound tenses marking the perfect passive system. So, "datus est" does not eman "he having been given is," but merely indicates the subject plus the perfect passive of dare, similar to English's use of the auxiliary verbs used to form this system.
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Re: "datas esse"

Postby amans » Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:10 pm

I agree with quickly; ptolemyauletes is correct that laudatus and esse are participle and infinitive, respectively, but together they form a compound verb. These are also called periphrastic verbs. Allen and Grenough write:

[*] 193. A Periphrastic form, as the name indicates, is a “roundabout way of speaking.” In the widest sense, all verb-phrases consisting of participles and sum are Periphrastic Forms. The Present Participle is, however, rarely so used, and the Perfect Participle with sum is included in the regular conjugation (amātus sum, eram, etc.). Hence the term Periphrastic Conjugation is usually restricted to verb-phrases consisting of the Future Active Participle or the Gerundive with sum.

[*] Note.--The Future Passive Infinitive, as amātum īrī , formed from the infinitive passive of eō, go, used impersonally with the supine in -um, may also be classed as a periphrastic form (§ 203. a).


Apart from this more theoretical discussion, I think that it suffices to say that congruence is required between the participle of the passive perfect compound and the subject or the equivalent thereof, cf. Allen and Grenough:

[*] 286. Adjectives, Adjective Pronouns, and Participles agree with their nouns in Gender, Number, and Case:—

vir fortis, a brave man.
illa mulier, that woman.
urbium māgnārum, of great cities.
cum ducentīs mīlitibus, with two hundred soldiers.
imperātor victus est, the general was beaten.
secūtae sunt tempestātēs, storms followed.

[*] Note.--All rules for the agreement of adjectives apply also to adjective pronouns and to participles.


locutus sum. :D
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Re: "datas esse"

Postby ptolemyauletes » Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:58 pm

quickly, not sure how you are disagreing with me.
I was merely making a note on the technical differences between a verb, such as laudavi, and a compound form such as laudatus sum. laudavi is a verb, laudatus sum is technically not, although it will be listed in grammars as such, or as a compound form, for ease of use. The distinction is unimportant, really.
This is the same as saying that English does not have a future tense. It doesn't! It uses modal verbs or even the present tense with adverbial markers to indicate the future. I will go, I am going, I am about to go, etc.
Of course we don't literally translate servus laudatus est as the slave is having been praised. We don't literally translate much from Latin to English. That's not what translation is. I was simply giving this awkward translation to show what was really happening.

Again, Latin does not have a perfect passive verb form.
LAtin has the following verb forms:
Active
present - laudo
imperfect - laudabam
perfect - laudavi
imperfect - laudaveram
future perfect - laudavero
future - laudabo

Passive
present - laudor
imperfect - laudabar
future - laudabor

There are no perfect verb forms. LAtin uses a form of the verb to be and a participle to create a compound form. Is this important? No, at least not in terms of translation. Simply translate it as a perfect passive, etc.
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Re: "datas esse"

Postby adrianus » Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:13 pm

ptolemyauletes wrote:This is the same as saying that English does not have a future tense. It doesn't! It uses modal verbs or even the present tense with adverbial markers to indicate the future. I will go, I am going, I am about to go, etc

"Will", of course, isn't adverbial for future time. [I see now you said "modal verb" and not "adverbial markers" for "will". Sorry, ptolemyauletes. But the rest of the argument still applies.] It is argued that, rather than an auxiliary of tense, "will" is in English an auxiliary of mood, alongside "can", "may" and "must" (Huddleston and Pullum, Cambridge Grammar of the English Language, 2002, p.209). For that reason (and another reason concerning will/would, they argue, but in a way that has nothing to do with participles, nor could be extended to them), there is no true future tense in English. Note, however, that even in Huddleston and Pullum's analysis, English participles are analyzed in two ways: in their verbal forms and in their adjectival forms. So,
H&P, p.80, wrote:i They are entertaining the prime minister and her husband. [form of verb]
ii The show was entertaining. [participial adjective]
iii Her parents are entertaining. [ambiguous]

Latin's past participle has the same ambiguity/duality and, I think, should be analyzed in the same way:
Says the angry cook to their late, demanding guest // Ità coquus iratus hospiti sero et hiulco.
i Cane cena manducata est. The meal was eaten by the dog. [form of verb]
ii Cena manducata non jam est. An eaten meal exists no longer. [participial adjective]

Note also, he doesn't say // Nota benè, non dicit autem hoc
iii Cena manducata non est. [ambiguous]

Pro tempore futuro, nonnè verbum non adverbium anglicè est "will" dictio? [Me paenitet, ptolemyauletes. Hoc retracto, quià quod scripsisti malè legi. Caeterum autem stet.]
Propositum est "will" anglicè modi non temporis verbum auxiliare esse, et deinde verborum sicut "can", "may", "must" similius. Qui modus ratiocinandi participia non tangit. Interim intelligitur participio praeterito anglico dua genera esse: ibi illud verborum, alibi illud adjectivorum.

Istiusmodi cum participio praeterito ambiguitas seu dualitas latiné,—et, meâ mente, nos tam latinè quam pro aliis generibus participii anglicè eundem modum interpretandi sequi debemus.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: "datas esse"

Postby adrianus » Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:08 pm

Concerning past participles in English, consider this, too.
De participio praeterito anglicè, hoc etiam videas.
Huddleston & Pullum, on "Adjectival Passives", p.1436, Ch.16, §10.1.3 wrote:i The kitchen window was broken by the thieves. [verbal: be-passive]
ii They were very worried. [adjectival: complex-intransitive]
iii They were married. [ambiguous]

Broken in [i.] is a verb, worried in [ii] is an adjective, while married in [iii] can be either.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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