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"sicco sinu" in Tib. 2.5.70

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"sicco sinu" in Tib. 2.5.70

Postby vir litterarum » Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:52 am

haec cecinit uates et te sibi, Phoebe, uocauit,
iactauit fusas et caput ante comas.---
quidquid Amalthea, quidquid Marpesia dixit
Herophile, Phyto Graia quod admonuit,
quotque Aniena sacras Tiburs per flumina sortes
portarit sicco pertuleritque sinu,
haec fore dixerunt belli mala signa cometen,
multus ut in terras deplueretque lapis.
atque tubas atque arma ferunt strepitantia caelo
audita et lucos praecinuisse fugam:
ipsum etiam Solem defectum lumine uidit
iungere pallentes nubilus annus equos:
et simulacra deum lacrimas fudisse tepentes
fataque uocales praemonuisse boues.
haec fuerant olim: sed tu iam mitis, Apollo,
Tib. 2.5.65-79

Can anyone explain to me how "sicco sinu" is being used in this context? Is it referring to the bosom of the Sibyl or a part of the Tibur? I took it as an abl. of means, i.e. "... and how many sacred lots the Sibyl of the Tibur has borne through the Anien tributaries and has carried through with her dry bosom."
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Re: "sicco sinu" in Tib. 2.5.70

Postby adrianus » Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:34 am

Salve vir litterarum
Hoc dicam:
"however often the Tiber's Anien [or Anio tributary] had conveyed sacred prophecies through [/according to] its streams [/currents] and would have borne [/suffered] them [the prophecies] from [/on account of/by/with—ut dicis] a dry bed"
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: "sicco sinu" in Tib. 2.5.70

Postby Iulia » Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:53 pm

Salve vir litterarum,

quidquid Amalthea, quidquid Marpesia dixit
Herophile, Phyto Graia quod admonuit,
quotque Aniena sacras Tiburs per flumina sortes
portarit sicco pertuleritque sinu,
haec fore dixerunt belli mala signa cometen,
multus ut in terras deplueretque lapis.


I also like, in this context of carrying and bearing across river waters, to think of sinus concretely -- the fold in a garment's drapery often used for just this purpose of carrying items.

I also see that there are manuscript difficulties with this passage. You have posted "portarit pertuleritque" but other texts have "portarat pertuleratque;" which seems to me a bit more manageable in this context:

"and whatever number of sacred prohecies [which] the Tiburtine Sibyl had carried and had borne through the rivers/waters of the Anio ... in a dry fold/sleeve [lit: by means of] "

Vale, /Iulia
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Re: "sicco sinu" in Tib. 2.5.70

Postby adrianus » Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:01 pm

Certainly, your version, Julia, agrees with this one of Williams which I just found online. Nice.
Certè, tua versio cum hâc de Williams quam modò in interrete inveni, Julia, congruens est. Lepida.

Theodore Williams, The Elegies of Tibullus, 1908, http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext06/eltib10h.htm wrote:In equal song Herophile
Chanted forth the times to be,
From her cold Marpesian glade.
Amalthea, dauntless maid,
In the blessed days gone by,
Bore thy book through Anio's river
And did thy prophecies deliver,
From her mantle, safe and dry.


kline, Tibullus and Sulpicia : The Poems, 2001, http://tkline.pgcc.net/PITBR/Latin/Tibu ... c532635308 wrote:All that Amalthea told, and Herophile of Marpessos,
all the warnings of Phoeto of Greece,
and all the sacred words that the Sibyl of Tibur carried through Anio’s stream, brought back in her dry breast,
all spoke of a comet to come, an evil sign of war,
and that many stones would shower onto the earth.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: "sicco sinu" in Tib. 2.5.70

Postby vir litterarum » Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:19 pm

So is the Sibyl moving her prophecies from place to place? Why would she be doing this? Weren't Sibyls established at one location where people seeking prophecies came to visit them?
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Re: "sicco sinu" in Tib. 2.5.70

Postby adrianus » Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:46 pm

Salvete, vir litterarum iuliaque

It's good that these translations (vaguely) agree but I still read the river itself as the subject of the clause, not the sibyl. I must be stubborn or dense.

Quod hae versiones inter se (etsi modo confuso) concurrunt bonum est. Ego autem flumen Tiberim non vatem subjectum clausulae esse tamen habeo. Stultus vel tenax sum, fortassis.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: "sicco sinu" in Tib. 2.5.70

Postby vir litterarum » Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:21 pm

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Re: "sicco sinu" in Tib. 2.5.70

Postby adrianus » Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:27 pm

It concerns me, vir litterarum, that I see the place name but not the personification in OLD, L&S and Oxford Classical Dictionary. Too silly of me!
Apud OLD, L&S, OCD, nomen loci non vatis video. Id me perturbat. Me nimis ineptum!
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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Re: "sicco sinu" in Tib. 2.5.70

Postby vir litterarum » Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:19 am

See Lactantius Diu. Inst. 1.6
"decimam Tiburtem, nomine Albuneam, quae Tiburi colatur ut dea iuxta ripas amnis Aniensis"

for a discussion of this list's influence on Tibullus, see

http://books.google.com/books?id=5A3IS8 ... =&as_brr=0
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Re: "sicco sinu" in Tib. 2.5.70

Postby adrianus » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:29 am

Thanks, vir litterarum. I understand now.
Lactantius (c. AD 250-325) http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/0 ... D,_MLT.pdf wrote:...decimam Tiburtem, nomine Albuneam, quae Tiburi colitur ut dea, juxta ripas amnis Aniensis, cujus in gurgite simulacrum ejus inventum esse dicitur, tenens in manu librum: cujus sortes Senatus in Capitolium transtulerit.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf07.txt wrote: ...the tenth of Tibur, by name Albunea, who is worshipped at Tibur as a goddess, near the banks of the river Anio, in the depths of which her statue is said to have been found, holding in her hand a book. The senate transferred her oracles into the Capitol.

This paper helped, too, following, as it does, the links between name and place and sources:
Gratias tibi ago, vir litterarum. Nunc apprendo. Me adjuvit et hoc, quod capitulum nexus inter locos atque nomina fontesque descendit:
http://www.paris-sorbonne.fr/fr/IMG/pdf/E._Buchet.pdf (Elisabeth Buchet,"La Sibylle de Tibur")

For Horace and Virgil, it seems to me, Albunea is more a place or spring; for Lactantius, and therefore Tibullus, a sibyl.
Horatio Virgilioque, mihi videtur, Albunea magis locus vel fons aquae est; Lactantio, et dein Tibullo, magis nomen sibyllae.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.
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