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Gospel Of Thomas Re-translated

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Gospel Of Thomas Re-translated

Postby mahasacham » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:07 am

A while back I was trying to find out if someone had fleshed out the Oxyrinchus Papyrus and possibly re-translated the Gospel Of Thomas into Koine Greek from the Coptic.

Since I could find no attempts, I decided I would take up the remaining Oxyrinchus fragments that we have of the original Greek version and try and fill in the approximately 90 or so remaining Logion that are missing. Before I got too far into the project, I figured I would post what I have in the hopes that someone might know of any attempts at this. If I am the only one then any help would be greatly appreciated as I don't know Coptic.

I used a Modern Greek translation, the Oxyrinchus fragments and a hyper-linear translation of the Coptic text (I did glance at the Coptic in case I recognized any Greek cognates in the language)
http://www.textexcavation.com/gospelthomas.html
http://freelyreceive.net/metalogos/files/thomas.html

There are a lot of errors in this and I am hoping for a lot of help, if you all wouldn't mind looking over what I have so far. I would especially appreciate any advice from someone who knows Coptic:

ΕΥΑΝΓΕΛΙΟΝ ΘΩΜΑΣ

1. Οὗτοι οἱ λόγοι οἱ ἀπόκρυφοι οὓς ἐλάλησεν Ἰησοῦς ὁ ζῶν καὶ ἔγραψεν Ἰούδας ὁ καὶ Θωμᾶς. Καὶ εἶπεν· ὃς ἄν τὴν ἑρμηνείαν τῶν λόγων τούτων εὑρίσκῃ, θανάτου οὐ μὴ γεύσηται.

2. Λέγει Ἰησοῦς· μὴ παυσάσθω ὁ ζητῶν τοῦ ζητεῖν ἕως ἂν εὕρῃ, καὶ ὅταν εὕρῃ θαμβηθήσεται καὶ θαμβηθεὶς βασιλεύσει καὶ βασιλεύσας ἀναπαύσεται.

3. Λέγει Ἰησοῦς· ἐὰν οἱ ἕλκοντες ἡμᾶς εἴπωσιν ὑμῖν· ἰδού, ἡ βασιλεία ἐν οὐρανῷ, ὑμᾶς φθήσεται τὰ πετεινὰ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ. ἐὰν δ εἴπωσιν ὅτι ὑπὸ τὴν γῆν ἐστιν, εἰσελεύσονται οἱ ἰχθύες τῆς θαλάσσης προφθάσαντες ὑμᾶς· καὶ ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ ἐντὸς ὑμῶν ἐστι κ´ακτος· ὅς ἄν ἑαυτὸν γνῷ, ταύτην εὑρήσει, καὶ ὁτέ ὑμεῖς ἑαυτοὺς γνώσεσθε εἴσεσθε ὅτι υἱοί ἐστε ὑμεῖς τοῦ πατρὸς τοῦ ζῶντος· εἰ δὲ μὴ γνώσεσθε ἑαυτοὺς, ἐν τῇ πτωχείᾳ ἐστὲ καὶ ὑμεῖς ἐστε ἡ πτωχεία.

4. Λέγει Ἰησοῦς· οὐκ ἀποκνήσει ἄνθρωπος παλαιὸς ἡμερῶν ἐπερωτήσει παιδίον ἑπτὰ ἡμερῶν περὶ τοῦ τόπου τῆς ζωῆς, καὶ ζήσεται· ὅτι πολλοὶ ἔσονται πρῶτοι ἔσχατοι, καὶ οἱ ἔσχατοι πρῶτοι, καὶ εἰς ἓν καταντήσουσιν.

5. Λέγει Ἰησοῦς· γνῶθι τὸ ὃν ἔμπροσθεν τῆς ὄψεως σου, καὶ τὸ κεκαλυμμένον ἀπὸ σου ἀποκαλυφθήσεταί σοι· οὐ γάρ ἐστιν κρυπτὸν ὃ οὐ φανερὸν γενήσεται, καὶ τεθαμμένον ὁ οὐκ ἐγερθήσεται.

6. Ἐξετάζουσιν αὐτὸν οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ καὶ λέγουσιν· Πῶς νηστεύσομεν, καὶ πῶς προσευξόμεθα, καὶ πῶς ἐλεημοσύνην ποιήσομεν καὶ τί παρατηρήσομεν περὶ τῶν βρωμάτων; λέγει Ἰησοῦς· μη ψεύδεσθε καὶ ὅ τι μισεῖται, μὴ ποιεῖτε, ὅτι πάντα ἐνώπιον τῆς ἀληθείας ἀναφαίνεται· οὐδὲν γὰρ ἐστιν ἀποκεκρυμμένον ὃ οὐ φανερὸν ἔσται.

7. Λέγει Ἰησοῦς· Μακάριος ἐστιν τὸν λέοντα κατεδηδοκότα ὑπὸ τοὺ ἀνθρώπου καί γέγονα ἄνθρωπος καὶ κατάρατον ἐστιν τὸν ἄνθρωπον κατεδηδοκότα ὑπὸ λέοντος

8. Λέγει ὁ αὐτός· ὁμοία ἐστιν ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν σοφῲ ἁλίαις, ὅς βάλλει σαγήνην αὐτοῦ εἰς θαλάσσᾳ. ἀναβιβάσαντες μὲν ἀπὸ θαλάσσου μεστὸς ἰχθυδίων, μεγάλα δὲ καὶ κάλα ηὕρισκε ἐν μέσῳ. Οὕτος σοφός ἁλιεύς πάντα ἰχθύδια χωρίς ὄκνου ἐκβάλλει εἰς θαλάσσᾳ. Ὁ ἔχων ὦτα ἀκουέτω.

9. Λέγει Ἰησοῦς· ἰδοὺ, ἐξῆλθεν ὁ σπείρων, πληρώσας χεῖρας αὐτοῦ, ἐκβάλλει. ἃ μὲν ἔπεσεν παρὰ τὴν ὀδὸν καὶ ἐλθόντα τὰ πετεινὰ κατέφαγεν αὐτὰ. ἅλλα μὲν ἔπεσεν ἐπὶ τὰ πετρώδη καὶ οὐ ἐρίζον κατὰ τὴν γῆν καὶ οὐ πάλιν ἐξανέτειλεν ἐνωπίον οὐράνου. ἅλλα μὲν ἔπεσεν ἐν μέσῳ ἀκάνθας καὶ ἔπνιξαν τὰς σπείρας καὶ σκώληκες κατέφαγον. ἅλλα μὲν ἔπεσεν ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν τὴν καλὴν καὶ ἤνεγκε καλὸν καρπὸν ἑὼς οὐρανῶ, ἀπεδίδου δὲ ἑκατονταπλασίως καὶ ἑκατόν καὶ εικοσιπλασίως

10. Λέγει Ἰησοῦς· ἐπιβάλλω πυρ ἐπὶ κόσμῳ καὶ ἰδοὺ, φυλάσσω ἑὼς αὐτὸ καυματίζεται.

11. Λέγει Ἰησοῦς· οὕτος οὐρανός τε ἀπελεύσεται, καὶ το ὑπέρ αὐτοῦ ἀπελεύσεται. Οἱ δὲ νεκροὶ οὑ ζητοῦσιν καὶ οἱ ζώοντες οὐ ἀποθανόνται. ἐν ἐκείναις ἡμέραις μὲν πότε τὰ ἀποθανόντα κατεφάγετε, δὲ αὐτὰ ἐζωοποιήσατε. ἐπειδὴ ἐισελεύσετε φωτὸς τί ποιήσετε; ἔν ἐκείνῃ ἡμέρᾳ συνηρμόσεσθε, τοτὲ διείλεσθε. ὁπότε διαιρεῖτε, τὶ ποιήσετε

12. οἱ μαθηταὶ ἕπον τῳ Ἰησοῦς· συνιέμεν ὅτι ἀναχωρήσεις. τις ἔσται ἐν ἡμὶν ῥαββὶ· ἀποκριθεὶς Ἰησοῦς λέγει αὐτοῖς, που ἵκεσθε, ἀνέρχεσθε πρὸς Ἰακὼβ τῳ δικαίῳ, αὐτοῦ ἕνεκα ὁ οὐρανὸς τε καὶ ἡ γῆ ἐγένετο.

13. Λέγει Ἰησοῦς πρὸς τοῖς μαθηταῖς αὐτοῦ· κηρύξετε μοι τίνι ὁμοιωθήσομαι. ὁ Σίμων Πέτρος λέγει· σὺ εῖ ἴσος ἀγγέλῳ δικαίῳ. Ματθαίος λέγει· σὺ εῖ ἶσος τῳ φιλοσοφοῦντι περὶ καρδίας. Θωμᾶς λέγει· ὦ διδάσκαλος, του ἐμοῦ το στόμα οὐ δυναταὶ φέρειν το ἀφομοίωμα σου· ἔπιε πιομένου δε καὶ μεθυσθέντος ὑπὸ του πηγῆς ἣν ἐκκέχυκα, οὐκέτι σου εἰμι ὁ διδάσκαλος. Παραλαμβάνων δε καὶ αὐτὸν Ἰησοῦς, καὶ ἀναχωροῦντες, λέγει τριά λόγια αὐτῷ· ἔπειτα ἐλθών πρὸς συνήθες Θωμᾶς, ἐρωτοῦσιν αὑτόν· Τι σοὶ λέγει Ἰησοῦς· Θωμᾶς λέγει αὐτόν· εἰ λέγω μία τῶν λογιῶν ὃν ἐπεὶ μοι, αἱρήσετε λίθοι ἴνα με ἐπιβάλλησθε. ἔτι πυρ προσελαύνων ὑμάς καυματίζεται.

14. Λέγει Ἰησοῦς πρὸς αὐτούς· εῖ νηστεύσετε ποιήσετε παραπτώματα, εῖ προσεύχεσθε κατακρίνεσθε, εῖ ἐλεήσετε δυσθύμειτε. πότε δε πορεύεσθε κάτα χώρους, εῖ ὑμάς ἀπολαμβάνουσιν, φάγετε ὅτι ἄν ἐνώπιον τιθέασι καὶ θεραπεύσετε τοὺς ἔχοντας κακὼς έν αὐτοῖς. οὐ γὰρ το εἰσερχόμενον εἰς το στόμα κοινοῖ τον ἄνθρωπον, ἀλλά το ἐκπορευόμενον ἐκ του στόματος τοῦτο κοινοῖ τον ἄνθρωπον.

15. Λέγει Ἰησοῦς· πότε βλέψεις τον μη γεννητόν γυναικὼν, πεσὼν ἐπὶ τον πρόσωπον ὑμῶν τοὐτόν προσκυνεῖ· Οὕτος ὁ πατὴρ ὑμῶν εστιν.

16. Λέγει Ἰησοῦς· οἱ πολλοὶ ἴσως νομίζουσιν ὅτι ἐλήλυθα βαλεῖν εἰρήνην ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν· Καὶ οὐκ οἴδασιν ἐλήλυθα βαλεῖν ἐπὶ τῆν γῆν ἐχθρίαν. Ἔσονται γὰρ πέντε ἐν οἴκῳ, τρεῖς ἐπὶ δυσίν, καὶ δύο ἐπὶ τρισίν. πατὴρ ἐπὶ υἱῷ, καὶ υἱὸς ἐπὶ πατρί· μήτηρ ἐπὶ θυγατρί καὶ κατ' ἰδίαν στήσονται.

17. Λέγει Ἰησοῦς· ἁ μὲν ὀφθαλμὸς οὔτε ἑώρακε, οὔτε οὖς ἤκουσεν οὔτε ἐπὶ καρδίαν ἀνθρώπου οὐκ ἀνέβη, ταῦτα δε ὑμὰς δώσω.

18. Οἱ μαθηταὶ εἶπον τῳ Ἰησοῦς· λέγε πως ἑξεῖ το τελεῖον ὑμῶν. Λέγει Ἰησοῦς· Ἀρά ἀρχὴν εὕρηκετε ἴνα ἐρώτητε περὶ τελειοῦ; ποι γὰρ ἀρχὴ εστιν, ἐκεῖ ἔσται το τελεῖον. Μακάριος ὅς στήσεται ἐπὶ ἀρχὴν. γνώσεται καὶ το τελεῖον καὶ θάνατον οὐ γεύσηται.

19. Λέγει Ἰησοῦς· Μακάριος ὃς ὑπῆρχε πρὸ το αὐτὸν γεννᾶσθαι. Ἂν μαθηταὶ παρὰ μοι γενήσεσθε καὶ τὰ λογία μου τηρήσετε , διακονήσουσιν ὑμὰς οὗτοι λίθοι. Πέντε γὰρ τὰ δένδρα ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς ἔσχετε, ἀ κατὰ το θέρον μένει ἀσάλευτος καὶ κατὰ χειμῶνα τὰ φύλλα οὐ πείσουσιν. Οἵτινες ταύτα γνώσεται, θάνατον οὐ γεύσηται.

20. Οἱ μαθηταὶ εἶπον τῳ Ἰησοῦς· λέγε τίνι ὁμοία ἐστιν ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν. Ἀποκριθεὶς Ἰησοῦς λέγει ὁμοιωθήσεται κόκκῳ σινάπεως. Ὁ μικρότερον μὲν εστιν πάντων των σπερμάτων, ὅταν δε πείσῃ ἐπὶ γῆν ἀροτριώμενον, αὐξηθῇ τε μείζον φυτόν καὶ γίνεται σκέπη τοῖς πετεινοῖς.

21. Καὶ εἶπεν Μαριὰμ τῳ Ἰησοῦς· τίνι ὁμοία εἰσὶν οἱ μαθηταὶ σου; Λέγει αὐτοὶ ὁμοιωθήσονται ὡς τὰ παιδία μικρὰ πορευθέντες κατ´ ἀγορὰν ἡν αὐτῶν οὑκ εστιν. Ὅταν κυρίοι ἐπανέρχηται ἐροῦσιν ἀπόδοτε ὑμὰς τὴν ἀγορὰν. Ἀποδυθήσονται ἴνα συγχωρῶσιν καὶ τὴν ἀγορὰν ἀποδίδωσιν. Φημι οὖν, εἰ ᾒδει ὁ οἰκοδεσπότης ὅτι ὁ κλέπτης ἔρχεται, γρηγορήσει ἄν πρό ἵκῃ, καὶ οὐκ ἂν εἴασεν διορυγῆναι τὴν οἰκίαν αὐτοῦ ἴνα ἀποφέρῃ τὰ ὑπάρχοντα. καὶ ὑμεῖς παρέχετε το νοῦν πρὸς τον κόσμον· ζώννυτε τὰς ὀσφύας δυνάμι μεγάλῃ μη λῃσταί πρόσοδον σοι εὑρίσκωσιν. Ἀφορμὴν εὑρήσουσιν ἢν προσδοκήσατε ἄν. Γενηθήτω ἐν ἡμὶν σωφρονιστὴς· Ὅταν δὲ παραδῷ ὁ καρπός, εὐθέως ἔρχεται μετὰ του δρεπάνου ἐν χειρὶ καὶ τοῦτον θερίσει. Ὁ ἔχων ὦτα ἀκουέτω.

22. ἰδὼν δὲ Ἰησοῦς τὰ παιδία θηλαζόμενα, λέγει δὲ Ἰησοῦς τὰ παιδία θηλαζόμενα, λέγει τοῖς μαθηταῖς τάδε τὰ παιδία θηλαζόμενα εστιν ὁμοία τοῖς εἰσερχόμενοις τῇ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν. λέγουσιν αὐτῷ• γινόμενοι ἄρα ὡς παιδία, ἐλευσόμεθα τῇ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν; ἀποκριθείς, λέγει Ἰησοῦς αὐτοῖς, ὅταν ποιῆσθε δύο ὡς ἔνα καὶ ἐκτὸς ὡς το ἐντὸς καὶ το ἐντὸς ὡς το ἐκτὸς καὶ το ἄνω ὡς το κάτω, καὶ ἀν τίθητι το ἄρσην μετὰ τῆς θηλῆς ὡς ἑνότης τελειότης, ὥστε ὁ ἀνὴρ οὑ ποιήσει τὰ ἄρσενα καὶ η γυνὴ οὐ ποιήσει τὰ θηλεία. Ὅταν τίθητι ὀφθαλμὸν ἀντὶ ὀφθαλμοῦ καὶ ἡ χεὶρ ἀντὶ τῆς χειρὸς καὶ πόδα ἀντὶ ποδὸς, καὶ εἰκὼν ἀντὶ εἰκόνος, ἔπειτα ἐλευσέτε τῇ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν

23. Λέγει Ἰησοῦς· ὑμὰς ἐκλέξω, ἑνὰ χιλιάδος καὶ δύο μυριάδος καὶ συναναστήσονται ὁμοῦ.

24. Οἱ μαθηταὶ εἶπον· ἀποκαλύψει ἡμίν τὸ τόπος αὐτοῦ. Ἀνάγκη γὰρ ἡμὰς αὐτὸν ζητεῖν. Λέγει αὐτοῖς· Ὁ ἔχων ὦτα ἀκουέτω. Έν τοῦ ἔχοντος τὸ φῶς ὑπάρχει τὸ φῶς καὶ ἐκλάμπει πᾶς ὁ κόσμος. Ὅταν ἐκλάμπει εστιν σκοτία.

25. Ἀγαπᾶτε τὸν ἀδελφὸν ὡς τὴν ψυχὴν ὑμῶν· Φύλαξον αὐτὸν ὡς κόρην ὀφθαλμοῦ σου.

26. Λέγει Ἰησοῦς· βλέπεις τὸ κάρφος τὸ ἐν τῷ ὀφθαλμῷ τοῦ ἀδελφοῦ σου, τὴν δὲ ἐν τῷ σῷ ὀφθαλμῷ δοκὸν οὐ κατανοεῖς. Ὅτε ἔκβαλε πρῶτον τὴν δοκὸν ἐκ τοῦ ὀφθαλμοῦ σου, καὶ τοτὲ διαβλέψεις ἐκβαλεῖν τὸ κάρφος το ἐν τῷ ὀφθαλμῷ τοὺ ἀδελφοῦ σοῦ

27. Λέγει Ἰησοῦς· Ἔαν μη νηστεύσητε τὸν κόσμον οὐ μὴ εὕρηται τὴν βασιλείαν τοὺ θεοῦ· καὶ ἐὰν μὴ σαββατίσητε τὸ σάββατον οὐκ ὄψεσθε τὸν πατέρα.

28. Λέγει Ἰησοῦς· Ἔστην ἐν μέσω τοὺ κόσμου καὶ ἐν σαρκὶ ὤφθην αὐτοῖς· καὶ εὑρὸν πάντας μεθύοντας καὶ οὐδένα εὑρὸν διψῶντα ὲν αὐτοῖς· καὶ πόνει ἡ ψυχὴ μου ἐπὶ τοῖς υἱοῖς τῶν ἀνθρώπων ὅτι τυφλοὶ εἰσιν τῇ καρδίᾳ αὐτῶν καὶ οὐ βλέπουσιν ὅτι κενοὶ εἰσελήλυθαν τῳ κόσμῳ καὶ κενοὶ ἀποχωρήσονται απο τοῦ κόσμου. Μέντοι νυν μεθύουσιν, ὅταν σωφρονίσωσιν τότε ἡ καρδία αὐτῶν μεταβαλεῖται.

29. Λέγει Ἰησοῦς· ἄν σάρξ γενηταὶ διὰ πνεύματος, θαυμαστὸν εστιν, Καίτοι ἄν ψυχὴ γένηται δία τοῦ σαρκὸς, θαυμαστότατον θαυμαστῶν. Ἔγωγε θαυμάζω τοῦτο· πως ὁδὲ ὁ πλοῦτος μεγάλη ἐκεῖτο ταύτῃ τῇ πτωχείᾳ μεγάλᾳ.

30. Λέγει Ἰησοῦς· ὀποῦ ἐὰν ὠσίν τρεῖς εἰσιν ἄθεοι, καὶ ὀποῦ εἳς εστιν μόνος, λέγω, ἐγώ ειμι μετ αὐτοῦ· ἐγεῖρον τον λίθον κἀκεῖ εὑρήσεις μὲ· σχίσον το ξύλον κἀγὼ ἐκεῖ ειμι.

31. Λέγει Ἰησοῦς· Οὐκ εστιν δεκτὸς προφήτης ἐν τῇ πατρίδι αὐτοῦ, οὐδέ ἰατρός ποιεῖ θεραπείας εἰς τοὺς γιγνώσκοντας αὐτὸν.

32. Λέγει Ἰησοῦς· Πόλις οἰκοδομημένα ἐπ ἄκρον ὀροὺς ὑψηλοὺς καὶ ἐστηριγμένη οὔτε πεσεῖν δύναται οὔτε κρυβῆναι.
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Re: Gospel Of Thomas Re-translated

Postby mwh » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:40 pm

What an enterprising thing to undertake! It seems to me, though, that a back-translation from the Coptic can only be successful if real scholars in Greek and Coptic get to work on it, and I don't think we have any of them here.

As you're aware, the Greek you give needs a lot of tidying. Just looking at the last saying here, #32: what you have as οἰκοδομημένα ἐπ ἄκρον ὀροὺς ὑψηλοὺς should surely be οἰκοδομημένη ἐπ’ ἄκρον ὄρους ὑψηλοῦ.
Last edited by mwh on Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gospel Of Thomas Re-translated

Postby jeidsath » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:59 pm

If you'd like to check (some of) your work, see Oxyrhynchus Papyri 1, 654, and 655.

Also this may be helpful: http://sites.utoronto.ca/religion/synop ... a-synt.htm
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Re: Gospel Of Thomas Re-translated

Postby mwh » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:06 pm

Just a word of warning on the translation that jeidsath links to. οικοδομημενη in Saying 32 doesn’t mean “being built” but “built.” It’s perfect passive, not present (which would be ridiculous).
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Re: Gospel Of Thomas Re-translated

Postby jeidsath » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:52 pm

I posted it because for the cross-references to the synoptic gospels, for the purposes of Greek comparison, not for the translation. It claims to be a translation of the Coptic, not the Greek. However you can click through to the translation of Greek saying 32 on that site, where it does use "built":

http://sites.utoronto.ca/religion/synop ... tm#gthgk32

I was able to find the Greek texts of the GoT here:

http://www.agraphos.com/thomas/greek/

Here is saying 32 from the papyrus:

λεγει ιϲ πολιϲ οικοδομημενη επ ακρον ορουϲ υψηλουϲ και εϲ τηριγμενη ουτε πεϲειν δυναται ουτε κρυβηναι

I imagine that the Modern Greek translation was aware of this version. I notice that the ϲ in υψηλουϲ is marked as doubtful, so mwh appears to be 3 for 3.

EDIT: And only know do I see that you already used the Greek fragments for this. I'm sorry for not reading more carefully.
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Re: Gospel Of Thomas Re-translated

Postby dikaiopolis » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:54 pm

You may be interested in the Greek "retranslation" included in an appendix to most recent edition of the Synopsis Quattuor Evangeliorum (ed. Aland), which also includes the Coptic text, German + English translations, and the POxy fragments. For Logion 32, POxy 1,36-41 reads (as jeidsath noted above):

Λέγει Ἰ(ησοῦ)ς· πόλις οἰκοδομημένη ἐπ᾽ ἄκρον [ὄ]ρους ὑψηλοῦ{ς} καὶ ἐστηριγμένη οὔτε πε[σ]εῖν δύναται οὔτε κρυ[β]ῆναι.

The retranslation reads:

Λέγει Ἰησοῦς· πόλις οἰκοδομημένη ἐπ᾽ ὄρος ὑψηλὸν (καὶ) ἐστηριγμένη οὐ πεσεῖν δύναται οὐδὲ κρυβῆναι δυνήσεται. (Cf. Mt. 5:14)
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Re: Gospel Of Thomas Re-translated

Postby mwh » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:59 pm

I don't get it. What is this "retranslation" meant to represent? What does it mean by rewriting the ancient Greek text?
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Re: Gospel Of Thomas Re-translated

Postby dikaiopolis » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:33 pm

From what I can gather, the retranslation stays closer to the Coptic text than the Gk fragments. They are a bit odd for logia where Gk fragments are extant (like no. 32 above), which are of course a minority. They also don't provide retranslations for logia without some parallel to a canonical gospel pericope (e.g., no. 7)...I wouldn't suggest using it for scholarly purposes, but they may be helpful for mahasacham's composition project.
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Re: Gospel Of Thomas Re-translated

Postby mwh » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:19 am

Thanks, but I still don’t understand, and my questions still stand. Besides, isn’t the Greek older, and the Coptic a translation (possibly via Syriac)? Does “retranslation” mean an attempted back-translation of the extant Coptic into the Greek that underlies it? Certainly that underlying Greek may not have been exactly identical with the actual Greek text that we have the first part of, but surely the way to proceed would be to start from the surviving Greek text and to change it only if the Coptic is definitively incompatible with it, if then? As it is, this purported “retranslation” seems badly misconceived.

mahasacham, you're certainly right to take the extant Greek text as your starting-point. But if I rightly understand your proposal I’d describe it not as a re-translation (of what and into what?) but as an attempted reconstruction of the original Greek text. And that, as I said, requires real expertise, especially for the parts where we have only the Coptic. It's quite impossible without knowledge of Coptic. Sorry to pour cold water on what seems in itself a very worthwhile project. (In fact I'm surprised it hasn't been done—or has it?) If you want to pursue it, I suggest trying to supplement the fragmentary parts of the Greek text with the help of the Coptic, which was not available when the Greek was first published. That would give you a better idea of what's involved.
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Re: Gospel Of Thomas Re-translated

Postby dikaiopolis » Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:29 am

mwh wrote:Thanks, but I still don’t understand, and my questions still stand. Besides, isn’t the Greek older, and the Coptic a translation (possibly via Syriac)? Does “retranslation” mean an attempted back-translation of the extant Coptic into the Greek that underlies it? Certainly that underlying Greek may not have been exactly identical with the actual Greek text that we have the first part of, but surely the way to proceed would be to start from the surviving Greek text and to change it only if the Coptic is definitively incompatible with it, if then? As it is, this purported “retranslation” seems badly misconceived.


Yes, the "retranslation" in the SQE aims to be a back-translation/Rückübersetzung (they use the English "Retranslation," but back-translation is what they are going for) that reconstructs the Gk Vorlage of the Coptic text. There are only a handful of Gk papyrus fragments, so in most cases they are only working with the Coptic. In cases where a logion exists in both Coptic and Gk, it seems like the Rückübersetzung just aims at reconstructing the Gk underlying the Coptic (which sometimes differs a good deal from the POxy frs., e.g. no. 6).

The Gk fragments are older than the Coptic translation. (The question of a Syriac original or a Syriac intermediary btw the Gk and Coptic is a little far afield for this topic. Short answer: probably not).

As for the Rückübersetzung being badly misconceived, I don't disagree. (In general, though, the SQE is a helpful, standard resource in the field). I'm also not sure why they didn't attempt a back-translation of the logia without synoptic parallels.
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Re: Gospel Of Thomas Re-translated

Postby mahasacham » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:43 am

I was reading the introduction to the book "The Gospel of Thomas: The Gnostic Wisdom of Jesus". In this introduction it is mentioned that Rudolf Kasser has produced a Greek Retroversion of the Gospel of Thomas.

I have been scowering the internet for it but cant seem to find it. Could anyone with better librarian skills help?
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