Textkit Logo

Help! Comenius Vestibulum

This board is a composition workshop, like a writers' workshop: post your work with questions about style or vocabulary, comment on other people's work, post composition challenges on some topic or form, or just dazzle us with your inventive use of galliambics.

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby Ursinus » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:56 pm

bedwere wrote:μυΐνδα

bedwere wrote:μυΐνδα
I understand it is a game like blindman's-buff(i.e., tag), but it seems to be in the ablative case and all the other words refer to objects. Any help?
In hoc enim fallimur, quod mortem prospicimus" -- Lucius Annaeus Seneca

Vestibulum: Revised and Expanded

Gratia et Pax,

Joannes Ursinus
User avatar
Ursinus
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:06 am

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby bedwere » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:08 pm

funda means also "D. A money-bag, purse, Macr. S. 2, 4 fin."

lixīvĭum is lye.

gutturnium sort of faucet.
scōpŭla
We cover a tabble with a cloth. --> We cover a table with a cloth.

intrita basically crumbled bread soaked in some liquid.
(supellex) necessaria est (? Shouldn’t it be sunt?)
It's OK also in the singular.
They recommend and persuade (what is best sense here?) honest things.
More or less what you have.
A step-father and step-mother raise together (?) their step-children
constrain?
User avatar
bedwere
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2728
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: Didacopoli in California

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby imd » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:09 pm

First, I want to thank you for a wonderful job transcribing and retranslating all this. I have some typos to report, and some translation suggestions of my own. As Comenius himself said, most important was to teach about things, with the words merely a necessary medium. Therefore, while the language should be modern, we should translate what Comenius meant, as near as we can determine, and not what the ancients would have meant by the same words, or what the words would mean in 21st century neo-Latin. Those other meanings should be pointed out in a note.

I've had to break my post into several parts for the forum to accept it.

You have a note for this:

Scrīniārius glūtine sua scrīnia glūtinat (conglūtinat). A carpenter glues with glue his own scrinia. (by carpenter I mean one who make furniture of some sort, and more specifically, according to the context, someone whose craft pertains to scrīnia [what the word literally means]. I decided not to translate the word scrinia since an English rendering gives the false impression the exact meaning of the word. Scrīnia refer to some kind of chest, box, desk, etc. for books or papers. See Lewis and Short’s entry for more information.)


I appreciate your scholarship, but since Comenius was adapting old Latin terms to new uses, or coining new Latin words out of old roots, I think you should follow the translations of his day and go with "joiner." It's traditionally been a separate trade from a carpenter, and he needed a word to represent it.

Nē clāmēs. Don’t yell.
Atquī sumus sōlī. But we are alone.


Shouldn't it be clāmā? It makes sense. Also, putting this on two lines makes it seem like the second is a response to the first. I checked the translation I've been using (Robotham), and the versions linked on metrodorus's Comenius Project page. Editions differ, both on clama vs clames, and on punctuation and line breaks:

Robotham:
Ne clama, atqui sumus soli. Cry not, but we are alone.

Vestibulum in usum illustris paedagogei Albensis:
Ne clama, atqui sumus soli.

Vestibulum (Latine-Hungarice):
Ne clama. atqui sumus soli.

Opera Didactica Omnia, Pars I:
207 Ne clama! Atqui sumus soli,

Vestibulum Majus (Latine-Germanice):
827. Ne clames tantopere.
828. Atqui soli sumus, nec quisquam nos usquam conspicit.


The last isn't really the same work as the Vestibulum, it's a rewriting into a much longer work.

Quōmodo lūdēmus? How shall we play?
Pilā, myindā (??), āleā With a ball, with (?), with die.


This could be translated as blind man's bluff, though they may have played a variant that we would call something else in Moravia or Lissa (where Comenius lived when he wrote the Vestibulum). The ancients seem to have included other variants under the name as well.

Atquī sunt fēriae. But it is stil festival.


Change "stil" to "still".

Apud altāre (āram), sacerdōs habet penes sē diāconum At the altar the priest at his side a deacon.


Put a full stop after diaconum, and a comma after priest. As for the translation, may I ask why you prefer "at his side" to Robotham's "in his power" or "attending on him"?
Last edited by imd on Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
imd
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:32 pm

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby imd » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:10 pm

Part two of three of my post.

Fatēre cōram nōbīs quid fēcistī clam nōbīs. Confess before us what you have done unknown to us.
Duia est palam multīs. As it’s clear to many.
Contrā praeceptum fēcī. I have done contrary to the precept.


"Duia" should be "Quia". "Precept" is an uncommon word, I would prefer "command," though I know you're more glossing than translating, in many cases.

Octō diēs sunt septimāna. Eight days are a week.


I like the notes you've put in to explain terms, similar to how Randy Gibbons did in his Latin/Greek Janua Linguarum Reserata (Dropbox). This line is confusing to me, and I think would benefit from a note, if we can find an explanation.

I know the Romans had an eight-day week, but I don't think that's what this is referring to, since Comenius wrote this during the early modern period for children to learn about the world around them. I did some googling, but couldn't find any explanation why Comenius would tell kids that eight days are a week. Any idea?

Discipulus discit nōn omnia simul, sed per partēs. A student learns not all at once, but through parts.
Praeceptor praecipit facienda. The master orders things to be done.
Rēctor regit acadēmīam. The rector rules the academy.
Paedagōgus advertit et urget. A pedagogue steers and pushes [a student].
Custōs monet, hortātur, et cōnsignat A supervisor punishes, exhorts, and writes down.
Magister īnstituit ūniversōs, The master instructs all together.
Singulī attendunt. They attend individually. (i.e., the custōs)
Ille ēmendat mendās. He amends faults. (lit. that man)


Why isn't it the students (discipuli) who pay attention to the master/teacher (magister)? I know that only custos is plural, and I don't know much about how an early modern school was organized in the divers parts of Europe, but it seems like the subject of the line should be an implied discipuli.

Nōn verberant baculīs et fūstibus. They do not chastise with a staves or clubs.


Remove "a" before "staves".

Līnea fit rēgulā. A line is made by a ruler.


Although "ruler" is cognate, Euclidean geometry (which was taught at the time) used a compass and what we now would call a straight-edge, which did not have lengths marked on it. Only in the 19th century were the use of ruler and protractor added to geometry instruction. I wouldn't change the translation, but I would put in a note.

Astronomus dēscrībit astra. An astronomer describes stars.


Maybe add a note about the wider meaning of describo in Latin, as you do with mores below.

Hypocaustum (vapōrārium) per fornācem calefactum calefit. A sauna by a a heated furnace is heated..


Two errors: a repeated "a" and a repeated full stop. Did Comenius really mean a sauna? In Comenius's time, a sauna was heated with a smoky stove. In Russia, they had something called a banya, a bathhouse that was heated with a stove, then the smoke cleared out, and hot rocks put in the water before bathers entered. A sauna uses dry heat, some other types of hothouse use steam. I know saunas are widespread across Europe now, but I can't find information on when that happened. "Hypocaustum" seems to refer to both in-floor heating and a heated bathhouse or steam room. In Wiktionary:
1611, Johannes Kepler, Strena seu de nive sexangula:
Admonebant istae striae rei illius, quae contingit in hypocaustis vapidis, brumali rigore pertusas fenestras obsidente.
These grooves reminded me of that thing which happens in steam rooms, when the cold of winter beseiges perforated windows.


I guess I've learned something about early modern Europe here.
Last edited by imd on Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
imd
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:32 pm

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby imd » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:10 pm

Part three of three of my post.

In cistīs et arctīs abscondimus rēs. We hide things in chests and coffers.
In corbibus portāmus. We carry in baskets.


Is res the implied object of portamus? In that case the English should have "them" after "carry". It's less of a straight gloss, but it might be good to indicate the meaning.

Indūsium et tunicam, thōrācem, femorālia (brācās), et tībiālia induimus et exuimus. We put on and take off a dress and a blouse, armor, breeches, and socks.


My translation has "our shirt and coat, our doublet, breeches, and neather-stocks." I'm not suggesting using neather-stocks, although maybe stockings, which are larger than socks, and which is what men often wore at the time (source). But the Dictionary of Medieval Latin from British Sources agrees with Robotham that indusium can mean a shirt. A blouse is a shirt that is tucked in and blouses out over the waistline, but a tunic (for the early moderns, not for the Romans) was like from as long as a t-shirt to a mini-skirt (same source). Our modern usage of "tunic" seems to roughly correspond to this, although only women tend to wear them now. But since Robotham has "coat," a tunic probably meant something heavier than a regular shirt. As for thoracem, although all the dictionaries say armor, I think we should trust Robotham on "doublet," which was a kind of snug-fitting padded (or rather, stuffed) jacket that evolved from the padding of medieval armor. So we have "our shirt and tunic, our jacket" if you don't prefer Robotham.

Lingulīs astringimus. With the flaps of the shoe (uncertain) we tie. (lingula is technically the diminuitive of lingua).


Robotham uses "points." Wiktionary has:

point, n.
(historical) A string or lace used to tie together certain garments.


So "laces" is probably be best.

Mappā sternimus mēnsam. We cover a tabble with a cloth.


Type: tabble for table.

Rūsticī habitat in pāgō. Rustics live in a village.


"Rustic" as a noun is usually pejorative in English. I would use "peasant", being the more common term.

Bona fāma est ingēns glōria. A good report est great glory.
Hanc amāre est fās, It is lawful to love this,
Spernere nefās. Unlawful to despise it.


"Est" should be "is", and I'd translate "bona fama" as "a good reputation". Robotham translates "hanc" as "it", which sounds like better English to my ears.

Increpāmus quōmodocunque. We rebuke in anyway.


"Anyway" should be "any way".

Dīves fatuus fīdit Deō in cōpiā, A foolish rich man trust God in plenty,


"Trust" should be "trusts"

Sī quid vīs cōnārī, dēbēs prius contārī. If you want to attempt something, you should first assay.
Et tunc rem aggredī; And then set upon the thing;
Nec amplius cūnctārī. And you [should not] delay any longer.


Why not translated the last line as, "nor delay any longer"? I know it sounds a bit archaic and formal, but its a more direct gloss, and obviates the parenthesis.

Pācā et plācā illum. Pacify and placate him.


"Pacify" has a very militant sound in English. I prefer Robotham's "appease".

Iniūriās tolerāre satius est quam ulcīscī. It is better to suffer wrongs than to revenge them.


Since you already used "suffer" for "patior", why not use "bear" here?

Reliqua reperiēs ōrdine. You will find the reamaing things in order.


Typo: "reamaing" for "remaining"
Last edited by imd on Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
imd
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:32 pm

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby Ursinus » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:54 pm

Wow, thanks for your suggestions, imd. I'll try to incorporate them here soon when I get time.

About the notes, I began using them quite a bit, and then I got somewhat lazy and thought I was encumbering the document, but I'll try to add some more. When I finish, I'll try to upload it somewhere accessible to all so that anyone can download it and modify it to their own liking.
In hoc enim fallimur, quod mortem prospicimus" -- Lucius Annaeus Seneca

Vestibulum: Revised and Expanded

Gratia et Pax,

Joannes Ursinus
User avatar
Ursinus
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:06 am

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby imd » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:03 pm

In the edition of Robotham's translation I'm using, notes and alternate readings are in the margin. You could accomplish this by adding a third column to the table. It would clean things up nicely.
imd
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:32 pm

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby bedwere » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:32 pm

Ursinus wrote:
bedwere wrote:μυΐνδα

bedwere wrote:μυΐνδα
I understand it is a game like blindman's-buff(i.e., tag), but it seems to be in the ablative case and all the other words refer to objects. Any help?

Use the force, Luke! :D Sometimes you have to go by sense. Comenius interpreted it as myinda, ae, first declension.

Entry in A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities (1890)
User avatar
bedwere
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2728
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: Didacopoli in California

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby Ursinus » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:37 pm

Put a full stop after diaconum, and a comma after priest. As for the translation, may I ask why you prefer "at his side" to Robotham's "in his power" or "attending on him"?
I had that originally, but Timothee recommended I put it how I did. I put them all down.
In hoc enim fallimur, quod mortem prospicimus" -- Lucius Annaeus Seneca

Vestibulum: Revised and Expanded

Gratia et Pax,

Joannes Ursinus
User avatar
Ursinus
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:06 am

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby Ursinus » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:39 pm

Touching adding a third column, I'll see what I can do. As long as it's not too much work, I'll do it.
In hoc enim fallimur, quod mortem prospicimus" -- Lucius Annaeus Seneca

Vestibulum: Revised and Expanded

Gratia et Pax,

Joannes Ursinus
User avatar
Ursinus
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:06 am

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby Timothée » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:40 pm

imd wrote:
Duia est palam multīs. As it’s clear to many.
Contrā praeceptum fēcī. I have done contrary to the precept.


"Duia" should be "Quia".

I mentioned “Duia” (with “sic!”) as the German-Polish version had it, but it was not meant to be corrected.

imd wrote:
Apud altāre (āram), sacerdōs habet penes sē diāconum At the altar the priest at his side a deacon.


Put a full stop after diaconum, and a comma after priest. As for the translation, may I ask why you prefer "at his side" to Robotham's "in his power" or "attending on him"?

I do think both translations are possible, depending on interpretation. I suggested “at his side”. One has to consider which one feels better.

imd wrote:
Nē clāmēs. Don’t yell.
Atquī sumus sōlī. But we are alone.


Shouldn't it be clāmā? It makes sense. Also, putting this on two lines makes it seem like the second is a response to the first. I checked the translation I've been using (Robotham), and the versions linked on metrodorus's Comenius Project page. Editions differ, both on clama vs clames, and on punctuation and line breaks:

Robotham:
Ne clama, atqui sumus soli. Cry not, but we are alone.


No, not imperative after . I know it’s possible in poetry, but this is not poetry. Nē clāmāveris or Nōlī clāmāre are the two main alternatives for this. Nē clāmēs is perfect, as well, but it means rather ‘One shall not shout/cry’, which could be exactly what is meant here—I didn’t check the context, though.
Timothée
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 495
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:34 pm

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby Ursinus » Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:35 pm

Is duia, then, a real Latin word?
In hoc enim fallimur, quod mortem prospicimus" -- Lucius Annaeus Seneca

Vestibulum: Revised and Expanded

Gratia et Pax,

Joannes Ursinus
User avatar
Ursinus
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:06 am

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby bedwere » Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:45 pm

Ursinus wrote:Is duia, then, a real Latin word?


In what page is it in the German-Polish? Anyway, I think it is a typo for Quia. Maybe Timothée meant "it was meant to be corrected"?
User avatar
bedwere
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2728
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: Didacopoli in California

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby Timothée » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:43 am

I meant that duia was in the German-Polish version, but it was never supposed to be corrected from the correct quia you already had. That is why I added that sic, i.e. that is not my but the edition's mistake. Sorry about causing this confusion!
Timothée
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 495
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:34 pm

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby Ursinus » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:36 pm

I am now, per imd's request, adding more notes and also putting them in the margin rather than in the text itself. I think it is a nice addition and makes the document less cluttered. So, if you are willing, also look for potential places to add helpful notes. Potential useful notes include: differences between Roman and Renaissance usage, grammatical aid, alternate translations of words, useful etymological aids (e.g., the fact that animal is derived from anima, literal renderings of words, and brief history of words that clarify meanings (e.g., again, anima is used in Aristotelian sense meaning a principle of life; hence, plants are technically speaking animales)
In hoc enim fallimur, quod mortem prospicimus" -- Lucius Annaeus Seneca

Vestibulum: Revised and Expanded

Gratia et Pax,

Joannes Ursinus
User avatar
Ursinus
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:06 am

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby Timothée » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:56 pm

imd wrote:
Indūsium et tunicam, thōrācem, femorālia (brācās), et tībiālia induimus et exuimus. We put on and take off a dress and a blouse, armor, breeches, and socks.


My translation has "our shirt and coat, our doublet, breeches, and neather-stocks." I'm not suggesting using neather-stocks, although maybe stockings, which are larger than socks, and which is what men often wore at the time (source). But the Dictionary of Medieval Latin from British Sources agrees with Robotham that indusium can mean a shirt. A blouse is a shirt that is tucked in and blouses out over the waistline, but a tunic (for the early moderns, not for the Romans) was like from as long as a t-shirt to a mini-skirt (same source). Our modern usage of "tunic" seems to roughly correspond to this, although only women tend to wear them now. But since Robotham has "coat," a tunic probably meant something heavier than a regular shirt. As for thoracem, although all the dictionaries say armor, I think we should trust Robotham on "doublet," which was a kind of snug-fitting padded (or rather, stuffed) jacket that evolved from the padding of medieval armor. So we have "our shirt and tunic, our jacket" if you don't prefer Robotham.

Ursinus probably took this portion from my post earlier in this thread, so should it be erroneous, that wouldn’t be his fault. I said there that this is difficult since toilet has changed much in the course of millennia. What I have given should be possible translations (I did check them in dictionary), but I do agree that if detective work can be done (you have some of it in your post) as to what Comenius strictly meant, all the better—as long as the text is to some extent adapted to modern day use.

imd wrote:I know the Romans had an eight-day week, but I don't think that's what this is referring to, since Comenius wrote this during the early modern period for children to learn about the world around them. I did some googling, but couldn't find any explanation why Comenius would tell kids that eight days are a week. Any idea?

There will be phrases huit jours ‘a week’ and quinze jours ‘two weeks’ still in modern French, though this doesn’t answer your question.

imd wrote:
Hypocaustum (vapōrārium) per fornācem calefactum calefit. A sauna by a a heated furnace is heated..


— — Did Comenius really mean a sauna? In Comenius's time, a sauna was heated with a smoky stove. In Russia, they had something called a banya, a bathhouse that was heated with a stove, then the smoke cleared out, and hot rocks put in the water before bathers entered. A sauna uses dry heat, some other types of hothouse use steam. I know saunas are widespread across Europe now, but I can't find information on when that happened. "Hypocaustum" seems to refer to both in-floor heating and a heated bathhouse or steam room. — —

In my mother tongue, which has given English the word sauna, there are no such restrictions to the meaning and usage of this word. In fact that used to be the common type of sauna, the so-called smoke sauna (they still exist here and there, though now they’re more of a speciality). Basically it means that there is no chimney, as you explained in different words.

I know of course that the donor language has no say how the word is used in the language into which it is incorporated, but I should think that the word sauna would do, maybe with an explanation in footnote or somewhere, if it confuses an English reader.
Timothée
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 495
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:34 pm

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby Ursinus » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:53 pm

I have now moved the inline notes into the margin. Thanks again for the recommendation. I am glad I did it.

Here's where we are at. I have expanded/supplemented with the Polish/German edition everything through caput quantum. And everything through caput quartum has been corrected (in its expanded form). Hopefully before the week's end I will have finished adding all the words for the last two chapters.
In hoc enim fallimur, quod mortem prospicimus" -- Lucius Annaeus Seneca

Vestibulum: Revised and Expanded

Gratia et Pax,

Joannes Ursinus
User avatar
Ursinus
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:06 am

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby Ursinus » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:40 am

Caput sextum has now been expanded. One more to go!
In hoc enim fallimur, quod mortem prospicimus" -- Lucius Annaeus Seneca

Vestibulum: Revised and Expanded

Gratia et Pax,

Joannes Ursinus
User avatar
Ursinus
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:06 am

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby bedwere » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:49 am

atque can be used for comparisons
User avatar
bedwere
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2728
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: Didacopoli in California

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby Ursinus » Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:45 am

I powered through and finished the last chapter. Let me know what you guys think.
In hoc enim fallimur, quod mortem prospicimus" -- Lucius Annaeus Seneca

Vestibulum: Revised and Expanded

Gratia et Pax,

Joannes Ursinus
User avatar
Ursinus
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:06 am

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby bedwere » Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:05 am

Deī adiūtōris auxiliō abūtitur.

He [the foolish rich] abuses of the help of God as an assistant.
User avatar
bedwere
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2728
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: Didacopoli in California

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby imd » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:01 am

There will be phrases huit jours ‘a week’ and quinze jours ‘two weeks’ still in modern French, though this doesn’t answer your question.


Sure enough, googling "huit jours" comes up with a bunch of explanations pointing to the Roman week, and/or the Roman practice of counting inclusively (i.e. from Monday to Monday is called eight days, not seven as we might say). There are also some mentions of the Beatles song "Eight Days a Week" as evidence that a similar construction is used in English, but it looks like the origin of that title was a tongue-in-cheek hyperbole.

intrita basically crumbled bread soaked in some liquid.


So maybe like bread pudding, or a sop?

No, not imperative after nē. I know it’s possible in poetry, but this is not poetry. Nē clāmāveris or Nōlī clāmāre are the two main alternatives for this. Nē clāmēs is perfect, as well, but it means rather ‘One shall not shout/cry’, which could be exactly what is meant here—I didn’t check the context, though.


I thank you for setting me straight, as I haven't come to learning about negatives imperatives yet. Why then do why most editions (including Hungarian-to-Latin editions, which I think Comenius himself penned) have "ne clama"? Was this a non-classical usage, or does it have some other justification?
imd
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:32 pm

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby Timothée » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:12 am

Yes, counting from Monday to Monday does make sense, even more so as the Romans practised inclusive counting also when reckoning the calendar. The nones are thus the 9th day before the ides counting inclusively. (We think of them as the 8th day before the ides.)

I can only guess why some editions print Ne clama. Maybe because it seemed simpler to the teachers to form the prohibition straight from the imperative with only a particle added (and thus corresponds with e.g. modern German vergiss ~ vergiss nicht, and why not English forget ~ don’t forget). It may also have been a peculiarity of Renaissance Latin, I don’t know.

The circumlocution noli(te) + present infinitive (noli clamare literally ‘don’t want to shout’) is common, as is ne + perfect subjunctive. I forgot to mention the 2nd imperative (in -), which is mainly used in elevated style. (The 2nd imperative can be negated simply with ne.) Ne + 1st imperative does have some currency in poetry and vernacular language, but it cannot be recommended to be used. Ne + present subjunctive could possibly work here, as it means more general prohibition (“one shall not”, “one must not” or something like that).

There are actually even more ways to express imperative or to give imperatival connotations in Latin, but they needn’t be listed here—they can be found in grammars. They include e.g. different periphrases (with cave, cura + ne/ut + subjunctive) and certain uses of future and subjunctive. But these shouldn’t be worried about unless one is interested in them (or meets them while reading texts, of course).
Timothée
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 495
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:34 pm

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby Ursinus » Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:52 pm

Some passages/words I still need clarification on.

"Tūre et succinō (sūcinō?) suffīmus." For sūcinum I have amber, but I am not familiar with it being used for perfume.

Mantilī (macrons correct?)

"Tolle patinās, salīnum, frustra pānis, crustās (?), et mīcās," I have crusts. Is this the best equivalent?

"Lātērna (lanterna), fōmes, crībrum (?), cōlum (?), infundibulum, cōs, lībra, et dēcipula, suppellex (supellex) necessaria est." A sieve and a strainer, respectively?

These two come right in a row and I was wondering what the distinction, if any, might be: "Caupōna profāna, A tavern [is] profane,

Ut et popīna et dīversōrium (dēversōrium). As also a bar (what is distinction between this and above?) and an inn." I.e., between popīna and caupōna.

How is this translation? "Fīdus subditus nōn premātur, nec pūniātur. A faithful subject is not oppressed (punished, pressed?), nor punished."

Thanks again ahead of time!
In hoc enim fallimur, quod mortem prospicimus" -- Lucius Annaeus Seneca

Vestibulum: Revised and Expanded

Gratia et Pax,

Joannes Ursinus
User avatar
Ursinus
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:06 am

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby bedwere » Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:24 pm

Ursinus wrote:"Tūre et succinō (sūcinō?) suffīmus." For sūcinum I have amber, but I am not familiar with it being used for perfume.


Check use of amber as perfume
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber

Ursinus wrote:How is this translation? "Fīdus subditus nōn premātur, nec pūniātur. A faithful subject is not oppressed (punished, pressed?), nor punished."

It's subjunctive: A faithful subject is not to be oppressed (punished, pressed?), nor punished.
User avatar
bedwere
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2728
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: Didacopoli in California

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby Ursinus » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:55 pm

Thanks again for all of you who have helped, Bedwere, Imd, and Timothee. I think the document is now in a semi-final form, though please if you see an error, correct it and I can emend the document.
In hoc enim fallimur, quod mortem prospicimus" -- Lucius Annaeus Seneca

Vestibulum: Revised and Expanded

Gratia et Pax,

Joannes Ursinus
User avatar
Ursinus
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:06 am

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby bedwere » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:05 pm

You know what would give you fame and glory? Well, maybe. :wink: A Latin only version a-la Lingua Latina per se illustrata. You could use definitions from Comenius's Lexicon atriale and Creative Commons images from Wikipedia. :idea:
User avatar
bedwere
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2728
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: Didacopoli in California

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby Ursinus » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:29 am

Bedwere, I'll give it some serious consideration. I would need some help on formatting the document and maybe even, if you're willing, help in composing it.

Let me know how you would envision the formatting working. Put short definitions in Latin in the margins? Pictures on another page. Definitions on another page. Little pictures in the margins.
In hoc enim fallimur, quod mortem prospicimus" -- Lucius Annaeus Seneca

Vestibulum: Revised and Expanded

Gratia et Pax,

Joannes Ursinus
User avatar
Ursinus
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:06 am

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby bedwere » Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:09 am

I would use the same format as in Familia Romana, two third of the page for the text and one third for margin notes and figures. If you use letter format, it should be large enough.
User avatar
bedwere
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2728
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: Didacopoli in California

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby imd » Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:43 am

Doesn't the Vestibulum introduce vocabulary too fast to be made like LLPSI? And it purposefully uses each word only once, except for grammatical particles. The glossary for LLPSI and its companions contains 2,435 words. The Vesibulum contains 1,000 words, I think.
imd
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:32 pm

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby Ursinus » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:31 pm

That's a fine point. Alternatively, I could use the vocab to form either small stories or just sentences of comprehensible input to aid in the consolidation of the vocabulary.
In hoc enim fallimur, quod mortem prospicimus" -- Lucius Annaeus Seneca

Vestibulum: Revised and Expanded

Gratia et Pax,

Joannes Ursinus
User avatar
Ursinus
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:06 am

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby imd » Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:14 pm

The Vestibulum probably provides a good vocabulary for writing a reader. 1000 common words. When I finished my first semester of Chinese, I bought an abridgement of The Secret Garden that used 400 common words, tailored to the vocabulary introduced in the two most common textbook series. Each chapter had a glossary of words introduced in it that weren't used in either textbook series, plus a list of grammatical patterns used, and a few other things. It was quite a process making them with such high production values, so of course they were sold for a profit. The great thing was that from reading a number of these books, you could slowly and almost painlessly increase your vocabulary little by little. They have a great essay about the value of extensive reading, vs. intensive reading.
imd
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:32 pm

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby imd » Mon May 01, 2017 12:35 pm

Looking at the lastest version:

Dē accidentibus rērum. Of the accidents of things.


I'd add a note that accident means "an attribute which may or may not belong to a subject, without affecting its essence," and is opposed to substance.

Arundō est cava. A reed is hallow.


Should be "hollow."

Sulphur lūteum. Sulphur is pale yellow.


I find no evidence that this is specifically a pale yellow. Quite the contrary, in fact. First, sulphur itself can be pale or bright yellow, depending on its form. Second, looking at Lewis & Short:

I.of or belonging to the yellow-weed; hence, in gen., of the color of lutum.

A. Golden-yellow, saffron-yellow, orange-yellow. chrysocolla, Plin. 33, 5, 27, § 91; Varr. ap Non. 549, 22: “pallor,” Hor. Epod. 10, 16: “pal la,” Tib. 1, 7, 46.—Subst.: lūtĕum , i, n, yellow: “color in luteum inclinatus,” towards yellow, Plin. 24, 15, 86, § 136: “color in luteum languescens,” id. 27, 13, 109, § 133.— Esp., the yolk of an egg: “lutea ex ovis quinque columbarum,” Plin. 30, 15, 49, § 141. —

B. Flame-colored, of the veil of a bride (v. flammeus), Luc. 2, 361; cf. Plin. 21, 8, 22, § 46; Cat. 61, 10.—


Lutum, the yellow-weed, produces a bright-yellow dye.

Golden-yellow, saffron-yellow, and orange-yellow are not pale. Chrysocolla can refer to various substances, some of which are not yellow at all, but of those that are, I can't find what shade they are.

I would change the translation to just "yellow."

Prūna est calida et candida. A live coal is hot and glowing.
Carbō frīgidus et āter. A dead coal is cold and black.


Fine as is, but candidus and ater mean shining white and dull black, as opposed to the earlier albus and niger, which mean dull white and shining black.

Ūnicornis est ferum animal, A rhinoceros is a fierce animal.


I see, from Lewis & Short, that this can mean rhinoceros (although I wasn't able to follow the link to a source text where it does), but contemporary translations into several languages all go with unicorn, so I would too.

Vacca mānsuētum, A cow is a tame [animal].


Here and everywhere in the document, I don't see the need to insert "is" when the Latin omits "est"; the English is as valid as the Latin without it. Comenius varies his phrasing, such as by omitting "est," to keep the text from sounding monotonous; why not do the same in English?

Quārtus quīntō, sextus septimō prior; The forth is prior to the fifth, the sixth to the seventh;


"Forth" should be "fourth."

Dēnōminātīva. Denominatives. A grammar term referring to words that derive from their noun form.


Apparently the term refers to derivatives in general, there also being denominatives derived from adjectives. The etymology is not what it may seem.

Ducātus aureus, A golden ducat,


To mirror the word order, how about "a ducat of gold"? And similarly for the rest.

Sōl lūcet. The sun lights.
Lūna splendet. The moon shines.


"Lights" sounds really weird. If you're doing it to avoid repeating "shines," how about "The sun shines. The moon gleams"?

Fulgur fulgurat. Lightning strikes (as lightning). Lighting lightnings, to make up a verb.


Should be "Lightning lightnings."

Holitor culīnae serit holera: A kitchen-gardner plants vegetables.


Should be "gardener."

Tandem cannabim et lupulum. Finally, hemb and a hop.


I think we always say "hops" in English, even though the dictionary has the singular as "hop."

Lapis iacet. A stone lies (on the ground).
Stirps stat. A plant stands.
Animal sē movet. An animal moves itself. An animal is anything that has an anima, that is, a soul in the Aristotelian sense, a principle of life. Hence, plants count as animals.


I am dubious. First, he contrasts animals with plants. The only mention of plants comes before, not after, this mention of "animal." Also, while I don't want to trawl through Aristotle right now, yet Wikipedia's Animal article has, "Aristotle divided the living world between animals and plants." Furthermore, Aristotle calls animals ζῷα, which refers specifically to beasts. Finally, my dictionaries don't provide evidence that animal includes plants either.

Alauda, acanthis, carduēlis, fringilla,

līnāria, luscinia cantillant in caveā. A lark, a goldfinch, a finch, a red-breasted robin, a common linnet, [and] a nightengale chirp in a bird cage.


Should be "nightingale."

Quod sternūtandō purgātur. Which be sneezing is purged


Should be "by," should end with a full stop.

Pulmō respīrat. A lung breaths.


Should be "breathes."

Volā prehendimus. With the hallow of the hand we hold.


Should be "hollow."

Tergum habet superne scapulās. The back has above the shoulder blades.


I think this would be clearer if you said "above it."

Memoria meminit. The memory remembers.
Et sī quid oblīta est, recordātur. And if it has forgotten something, it remembers it.


How about making recordor "recall" or "recollect"?

Sed saepe fallitur. But it is often deceived


Add a full stop.

Spīrās et placentās praeter obeliās et teganitās. Twiseted cakes and normal cakes besides rolls and pancakes.


Should read "Twisted."

In ollā offās, halecēs, petasōnēs, tomācula, apexabōnēs, aliaque farcīmina: In a pot morsels, herrings, sasauge, liver-sasuage, and other sasuages:


Typo: "sasauge" twice.

Assat in veribus anatēs, capōs, perdīcēs et turdōs. He roasts ducks, capos, partridges, and thrushes on spits. A capo is a castrated rooster.


The English word is "capon."

Cum vehit onera currū aut trahā. When it bears burdens by a wagon or drag. A traha is essentially a sleigh or something that is pulled along the ground without wheels.


I think more common is "dray," but even better would be "sleigh," no need for the note.

Netrix ad cōlum net ē līnō. A spinstress at the distaff spind out of the flax.


Should be "spins." Also, I can't find "net" excapt as derived from "nō," "I swim."

Sūtor suit calceōs et ocreās ex coriō et alūta. A cobbler cobbles shoes and shinguards from hide and soft leather.


I would prefer "greaves" or "leggings."

Lignārius asciat asciā. The carpenter cuts with an axe.
Ūtiturque dolābrā et terebrā. And use a pickaxe and a borer.


"Uses."

Sī tē sessiōnis taedet, oportet spatiārī. If it wearies you of sitting, it is necessary to go for a walk.


Although the wording is similar to Robotham's translation, this doesn't sound like proper modern English. I suggest "If sitting wearies you."

I am finding a lot of typos. You should copy the second and third columns to another document (without the column of Latin) and run a spell check.
imd
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:32 pm

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby Ursinus » Mon May 01, 2017 3:06 pm

I was able to run spellcheck on last two columns, and I hope that fixed most of the typos.

Should be "spins." Also, I can't find "net" except as derived from "nō," "I swim."


See net, neo, nere, nevi.
In hoc enim fallimur, quod mortem prospicimus" -- Lucius Annaeus Seneca

Vestibulum: Revised and Expanded

Gratia et Pax,

Joannes Ursinus
User avatar
Ursinus
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:06 am

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby imd » Tue May 02, 2017 7:15 am

Secundum flūmen facile est natāre. Downstream it is easy to swim. Lit. according to the river.
Adversus illud impossibile. Upstream it is impossible. Lit. against that.


Lewis & Short give that as the figurative definition, but define it in space as a. Following after, i.e. after, behind; b. Following an extension in space, i. e. by, along.

How about, "Following the river, it is easy to swim. Against it, impossible."

Colloquia latīna et exāmina nōn sunt abrogonda. Latin conversations and exams must to be abrogated.


I think this is a typo for "must not be."

Pictor effigiem vel imāginem pingit. A painter paints a picture or and image.


"or an."

Vērum dē iīs paulō īnfrā. But concerning these a little lower.


"a little below."

Vītricus et noverca cōgunt prīvignōs. A step-father and step-mother compel their step-children


Add a full stop.

Ut rēx scēptrum teneat in regnō regnet. That a king may wield his scepter reign in his kingdom.


I think some kind of conjunction must be missing here.

That's all, I think.
imd
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:32 pm

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby Timothée » Tue May 02, 2017 4:47 pm

imd wrote:
Secundum flūmen facile est natāre. Downstream it is easy to swim. Lit. according to the river.
Adversus illud impossibile. Upstream it is impossible. Lit. against that.


Lewis & Short give that as the figurative definition, but define it in space as a. Following after, i.e. after, behind; b. Following an extension in space, i. e. by, along.

How about, "Following the river, it is easy to swim. Against it, impossible."

I suggested “downstream” and “upstream” above (the former to replace “according”), but English is not my native language. In Finnish we say “with the river” and “against the river”. I cannot commentate on minute stylistic matters.

One small thing that caught my eye: note that lēvis lēve is ‘smooth’ but lĕvis lĕve is ‘light’. Latin has quite a lot of these minimal pairs, where only the vowel-length disambiguates words (ĕ was probably also more open, so ĕ [ε] but ē [eː]).

*Foeter should be foetor. OLD mentions foetor, faetor, and fētor, but the entry is on foetor, so that’s probably best so.

*Chīrugus should be chīrūrgus (< Greek χειρουργός)

Add the macron on īnsipida, and note the i in the middle of the word (so L & S and the German-Polish version).

As I said, best have ē in tēstimōnium (to be added).

For *anōmola read anōmala (from Greek ἀνώμαλος, ἀνώμαλον).

Probably orīchalceus, as it derives from ὀρείχαλκος, so add the macron on ī.
Timothée
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 495
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:34 pm

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby mwh » Wed May 03, 2017 3:00 am

bedwere wrote:creative commons immages from Wikipedia.

I wonder what bedwere's native language is.
mwh
Textkit Zealot
 
Posts: 2367
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby bedwere » Wed May 03, 2017 3:15 am

mwh wrote:
bedwere wrote:creative commons immages from Wikipedia.

I wonder what bedwere's native language is.


I'm Italian. :oops: and I type as fast as a Ferrari! :D
User avatar
bedwere
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2728
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: Didacopoli in California

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby imd » Wed May 03, 2017 4:42 am

testimōnium should have a short e, according to my dictionaries.

orichalceus should have a short i, as it's derived from orichalcum, which has a short i in Latin according to my dictionaries.
imd
Textkit Neophyte
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:32 pm

Re: Help! Comenius Vestibulum

Postby Timothée » Wed May 03, 2017 7:04 am

imd wrote:orichalceus should have a short i, as it's derived from orichalcum, which has a short i in Latin according to my dictionaries.

Yes, you’re right, my apologies. I derived the length from Greek (ὀρείχαλκος), which should give Latin an ī. However, for some reason it is ĭ, as Verg. Aen. 12,87 shows:
Ipse dehinc auro squalentem alboque orichalco

imd wrote:testimōnium should have a short e, according to my dictionaries.

This is a difficult question, which I should have problematised more clearly. It derives of course from testis. The development must have been *trĭstis > *tr̥stis > *terstis > testis or something quite close to this. Did the stage *terstis > testis lengthen the e or not?
Timothée
Textkit Enthusiast
 
Posts: 495
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:34 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Composition Board

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests