bedwere wrote:μυΐνδα
I understand it is a game like blindman's-buff(i.e., tag), but it seems to be in the ablative case and all the other words refer to objects. Any help?bedwere wrote:μυΐνδα
bedwere wrote:μυΐνδα
I understand it is a game like blindman's-buff(i.e., tag), but it seems to be in the ablative case and all the other words refer to objects. Any help?bedwere wrote:μυΐνδα
It's OK also in the singular.(supellex) necessaria est (? Shouldn’t it be sunt?)
More or less what you have.They recommend and persuade (what is best sense here?) honest things.
constrain?A step-father and step-mother raise together (?) their step-children
I appreciate your scholarship, but since Comenius was adapting old Latin terms to new uses, or coining new Latin words out of old roots, I think you should follow the translations of his day and go with "joiner." It's traditionally been a separate trade from a carpenter, and he needed a word to represent it.Scrīniārius glūtine sua scrīnia glūtinat (conglūtinat). A carpenter glues with glue his own scrinia. (by carpenter I mean one who make furniture of some sort, and more specifically, according to the context, someone whose craft pertains to scrīnia [what the word literally means]. I decided not to translate the word scrinia since an English rendering gives the false impression the exact meaning of the word. Scrīnia refer to some kind of chest, box, desk, etc. for books or papers. See Lewis and Short’s entry for more information.)
Shouldn't it be clāmā? It makes sense. Also, putting this on two lines makes it seem like the second is a response to the first. I checked the translation I've been using (Robotham), and the versions linked on metrodorus's Comenius Project page. Editions differ, both on clama vs clames, and on punctuation and line breaks:Nē clāmēs. Don’t yell.
Atquī sumus sōlī. But we are alone.
Robotham:
Ne clama, atqui sumus soli. Cry not, but we are alone.
Vestibulum in usum illustris paedagogei Albensis:
Ne clama, atqui sumus soli.
Vestibulum (Latine-Hungarice):
Ne clama. atqui sumus soli.
Opera Didactica Omnia, Pars I:
207 Ne clama! Atqui sumus soli,
The last isn't really the same work as the Vestibulum, it's a rewriting into a much longer work.Vestibulum Majus (Latine-Germanice):
827. Ne clames tantopere.
828. Atqui soli sumus, nec quisquam nos usquam conspicit.
This could be translated as blind man's bluff, though they may have played a variant that we would call something else in Moravia or Lissa (where Comenius lived when he wrote the Vestibulum). The ancients seem to have included other variants under the name as well.Quōmodo lūdēmus? How shall we play?
Pilā, myindā (??), āleā With a ball, with (?), with die.
Change "stil" to "still".Atquī sunt fēriae. But it is stil festival.
Put a full stop after diaconum, and a comma after priest. As for the translation, may I ask why you prefer "at his side" to Robotham's "in his power" or "attending on him"?Apud altāre (āram), sacerdōs habet penes sē diāconum At the altar the priest at his side a deacon.
"Duia" should be "Quia". "Precept" is an uncommon word, I would prefer "command," though I know you're more glossing than translating, in many cases.Fatēre cōram nōbīs quid fēcistī clam nōbīs. Confess before us what you have done unknown to us.
Duia est palam multīs. As it’s clear to many.
Contrā praeceptum fēcī. I have done contrary to the precept.
I like the notes you've put in to explain terms, similar to how Randy Gibbons did in his Latin/Greek Janua Linguarum Reserata (Dropbox). This line is confusing to me, and I think would benefit from a note, if we can find an explanation.Octō diēs sunt septimāna. Eight days are a week.
Why isn't it the students (discipuli) who pay attention to the master/teacher (magister)? I know that only custos is plural, and I don't know much about how an early modern school was organized in the divers parts of Europe, but it seems like the subject of the line should be an implied discipuli.Discipulus discit nōn omnia simul, sed per partēs. A student learns not all at once, but through parts.
Praeceptor praecipit facienda. The master orders things to be done.
Rēctor regit acadēmīam. The rector rules the academy.
Paedagōgus advertit et urget. A pedagogue steers and pushes [a student].
Custōs monet, hortātur, et cōnsignat A supervisor punishes, exhorts, and writes down.
Magister īnstituit ūniversōs, The master instructs all together.
Singulī attendunt. They attend individually. (i.e., the custōs)
Ille ēmendat mendās. He amends faults. (lit. that man)
Remove "a" before "staves".Nōn verberant baculīs et fūstibus. They do not chastise with a staves or clubs.
Although "ruler" is cognate, Euclidean geometry (which was taught at the time) used a compass and what we now would call a straight-edge, which did not have lengths marked on it. Only in the 19th century were the use of ruler and protractor added to geometry instruction. I wouldn't change the translation, but I would put in a note.Līnea fit rēgulā. A line is made by a ruler.
Maybe add a note about the wider meaning of describo in Latin, as you do with mores below.Astronomus dēscrībit astra. An astronomer describes stars.
Two errors: a repeated "a" and a repeated full stop. Did Comenius really mean a sauna? In Comenius's time, a sauna was heated with a smoky stove. In Russia, they had something called a banya, a bathhouse that was heated with a stove, then the smoke cleared out, and hot rocks put in the water before bathers entered. A sauna uses dry heat, some other types of hothouse use steam. I know saunas are widespread across Europe now, but I can't find information on when that happened. "Hypocaustum" seems to refer to both in-floor heating and a heated bathhouse or steam room. In Wiktionary:Hypocaustum (vapōrārium) per fornācem calefactum calefit. A sauna by a a heated furnace is heated..
I guess I've learned something about early modern Europe here.1611, Johannes Kepler, Strena seu de nive sexangula:
Admonebant istae striae rei illius, quae contingit in hypocaustis vapidis, brumali rigore pertusas fenestras obsidente.
These grooves reminded me of that thing which happens in steam rooms, when the cold of winter beseiges perforated windows.
Is res the implied object of portamus? In that case the English should have "them" after "carry". It's less of a straight gloss, but it might be good to indicate the meaning.In cistīs et arctīs abscondimus rēs. We hide things in chests and coffers.
In corbibus portāmus. We carry in baskets.
My translation has "our shirt and coat, our doublet, breeches, and neather-stocks." I'm not suggesting using neather-stocks, although maybe stockings, which are larger than socks, and which is what men often wore at the time (source). But the Dictionary of Medieval Latin from British Sources agrees with Robotham that indusium can mean a shirt. A blouse is a shirt that is tucked in and blouses out over the waistline, but a tunic (for the early moderns, not for the Romans) was like from as long as a t-shirt to a mini-skirt (same source). Our modern usage of "tunic" seems to roughly correspond to this, although only women tend to wear them now. But since Robotham has "coat," a tunic probably meant something heavier than a regular shirt. As for thoracem, although all the dictionaries say armor, I think we should trust Robotham on "doublet," which was a kind of snug-fitting padded (or rather, stuffed) jacket that evolved from the padding of medieval armor. So we have "our shirt and tunic, our jacket" if you don't prefer Robotham.Indūsium et tunicam, thōrācem, femorālia (brācās), et tībiālia induimus et exuimus. We put on and take off a dress and a blouse, armor, breeches, and socks.
Robotham uses "points." Wiktionary has:Lingulīs astringimus. With the flaps of the shoe (uncertain) we tie. (lingula is technically the diminuitive of lingua).
So "laces" is probably be best.point, n.
(historical) A string or lace used to tie together certain garments.
Type: tabble for table.Mappā sternimus mēnsam. We cover a tabble with a cloth.
"Rustic" as a noun is usually pejorative in English. I would use "peasant", being the more common term.Rūsticī habitat in pāgō. Rustics live in a village.
"Est" should be "is", and I'd translate "bona fama" as "a good reputation". Robotham translates "hanc" as "it", which sounds like better English to my ears.Bona fāma est ingēns glōria. A good report est great glory.
Hanc amāre est fās, It is lawful to love this,
Spernere nefās. Unlawful to despise it.
"Anyway" should be "any way".Increpāmus quōmodocunque. We rebuke in anyway.
"Trust" should be "trusts"Dīves fatuus fīdit Deō in cōpiā, A foolish rich man trust God in plenty,
Why not translated the last line as, "nor delay any longer"? I know it sounds a bit archaic and formal, but its a more direct gloss, and obviates the parenthesis.Sī quid vīs cōnārī, dēbēs prius contārī. If you want to attempt something, you should first assay.
Et tunc rem aggredī; And then set upon the thing;
Nec amplius cūnctārī. And you [should not] delay any longer.
"Pacify" has a very militant sound in English. I prefer Robotham's "appease".Pācā et plācā illum. Pacify and placate him.
Since you already used "suffer" for "patior", why not use "bear" here?Iniūriās tolerāre satius est quam ulcīscī. It is better to suffer wrongs than to revenge them.
Typo: "reamaing" for "remaining"Reliqua reperiēs ōrdine. You will find the reamaing things in order.
Use the force, Luke! Sometimes you have to go by sense. Comenius interpreted it as myinda, ae, first declension.Ursinus wrote:bedwere wrote:μυΐνδαI understand it is a game like blindman's-buff(i.e., tag), but it seems to be in the ablative case and all the other words refer to objects. Any help?bedwere wrote:μυΐνδα
I had that originally, but Timothee recommended I put it how I did. I put them all down.Put a full stop after diaconum, and a comma after priest. As for the translation, may I ask why you prefer "at his side" to Robotham's "in his power" or "attending on him"?
I mentioned “Duia” (with “sic!”) as the German-Polish version had it, but it was not meant to be corrected.imd wrote:"Duia" should be "Quia".Duia est palam multīs. As it’s clear to many.
Contrā praeceptum fēcī. I have done contrary to the precept.
I do think both translations are possible, depending on interpretation. I suggested “at his side”. One has to consider which one feels better.imd wrote:Put a full stop after diaconum, and a comma after priest. As for the translation, may I ask why you prefer "at his side" to Robotham's "in his power" or "attending on him"?Apud altāre (āram), sacerdōs habet penes sē diāconum At the altar the priest at his side a deacon.
No, not imperative after nē. I know it’s possible in poetry, but this is not poetry. Nē clāmāveris or Nōlī clāmāre are the two main alternatives for this. Nē clāmēs is perfect, as well, but it means rather ‘One shall not shout/cry’, which could be exactly what is meant here—I didn’t check the context, though.imd wrote:Shouldn't it be clāmā? It makes sense. Also, putting this on two lines makes it seem like the second is a response to the first. I checked the translation I've been using (Robotham), and the versions linked on metrodorus's Comenius Project page. Editions differ, both on clama vs clames, and on punctuation and line breaks:Nē clāmēs. Don’t yell.
Atquī sumus sōlī. But we are alone.
Robotham:
Ne clama, atqui sumus soli. Cry not, but we are alone.
In what page is it in the German-Polish? Anyway, I think it is a typo for Quia. Maybe Timothée meant "it was meant to be corrected"?Ursinus wrote:Is duia, then, a real Latin word?
Ursinus probably took this portion from my post earlier in this thread, so should it be erroneous, that wouldn’t be his fault. I said there that this is difficult since toilet has changed much in the course of millennia. What I have given should be possible translations (I did check them in dictionary), but I do agree that if detective work can be done (you have some of it in your post) as to what Comenius strictly meant, all the better—as long as the text is to some extent adapted to modern day use.imd wrote:My translation has "our shirt and coat, our doublet, breeches, and neather-stocks." I'm not suggesting using neather-stocks, although maybe stockings, which are larger than socks, and which is what men often wore at the time (source). But the Dictionary of Medieval Latin from British Sources agrees with Robotham that indusium can mean a shirt. A blouse is a shirt that is tucked in and blouses out over the waistline, but a tunic (for the early moderns, not for the Romans) was like from as long as a t-shirt to a mini-skirt (same source). Our modern usage of "tunic" seems to roughly correspond to this, although only women tend to wear them now. But since Robotham has "coat," a tunic probably meant something heavier than a regular shirt. As for thoracem, although all the dictionaries say armor, I think we should trust Robotham on "doublet," which was a kind of snug-fitting padded (or rather, stuffed) jacket that evolved from the padding of medieval armor. So we have "our shirt and tunic, our jacket" if you don't prefer Robotham.Indūsium et tunicam, thōrācem, femorālia (brācās), et tībiālia induimus et exuimus. We put on and take off a dress and a blouse, armor, breeches, and socks.
There will be phrases huit jours ‘a week’ and quinze jours ‘two weeks’ still in modern French, though this doesn’t answer your question.imd wrote:I know the Romans had an eight-day week, but I don't think that's what this is referring to, since Comenius wrote this during the early modern period for children to learn about the world around them. I did some googling, but couldn't find any explanation why Comenius would tell kids that eight days are a week. Any idea?
In my mother tongue, which has given English the word sauna, there are no such restrictions to the meaning and usage of this word. In fact that used to be the common type of sauna, the so-called smoke sauna (they still exist here and there, though now they’re more of a speciality). Basically it means that there is no chimney, as you explained in different words.imd wrote:— — Did Comenius really mean a sauna? In Comenius's time, a sauna was heated with a smoky stove. In Russia, they had something called a banya, a bathhouse that was heated with a stove, then the smoke cleared out, and hot rocks put in the water before bathers entered. A sauna uses dry heat, some other types of hothouse use steam. I know saunas are widespread across Europe now, but I can't find information on when that happened. "Hypocaustum" seems to refer to both in-floor heating and a heated bathhouse or steam room. — —Hypocaustum (vapōrārium) per fornācem calefactum calefit. A sauna by a a heated furnace is heated..
Sure enough, googling "huit jours" comes up with a bunch of explanations pointing to the Roman week, and/or the Roman practice of counting inclusively (i.e. from Monday to Monday is called eight days, not seven as we might say). There are also some mentions of the Beatles song "Eight Days a Week" as evidence that a similar construction is used in English, but it looks like the origin of that title was a tongue-in-cheek hyperbole.There will be phrases huit jours ‘a week’ and quinze jours ‘two weeks’ still in modern French, though this doesn’t answer your question.
So maybe like bread pudding, or a sop?intrita basically crumbled bread soaked in some liquid.
I thank you for setting me straight, as I haven't come to learning about negatives imperatives yet. Why then do why most editions (including Hungarian-to-Latin editions, which I think Comenius himself penned) have "ne clama"? Was this a non-classical usage, or does it have some other justification?No, not imperative after nē. I know it’s possible in poetry, but this is not poetry. Nē clāmāveris or Nōlī clāmāre are the two main alternatives for this. Nē clāmēs is perfect, as well, but it means rather ‘One shall not shout/cry’, which could be exactly what is meant here—I didn’t check the context, though.
Check use of amber as perfumeUrsinus wrote:"Tūre et succinō (sūcinō?) suffīmus." For sūcinum I have amber, but I am not familiar with it being used for perfume.
It's subjunctive: A faithful subject is not to be oppressed (punished, pressed?), nor punished.Ursinus wrote:How is this translation? "Fīdus subditus nōn premātur, nec pūniātur. A faithful subject is not oppressed (punished, pressed?), nor punished."
I'd add a note that accident means "an attribute which may or may not belong to a subject, without affecting its essence," and is opposed to substance.Dē accidentibus rērum. Of the accidents of things.
Should be "hollow."Arundō est cava. A reed is hallow.
I find no evidence that this is specifically a pale yellow. Quite the contrary, in fact. First, sulphur itself can be pale or bright yellow, depending on its form. Second, looking at Lewis & Short:Sulphur lūteum. Sulphur is pale yellow.
Lutum, the yellow-weed, produces a bright-yellow dye.I.of or belonging to the yellow-weed; hence, in gen., of the color of lutum.
A. Golden-yellow, saffron-yellow, orange-yellow. chrysocolla, Plin. 33, 5, 27, § 91; Varr. ap Non. 549, 22: “pallor,” Hor. Epod. 10, 16: “pal la,” Tib. 1, 7, 46.—Subst.: lūtĕum , i, n, yellow: “color in luteum inclinatus,” towards yellow, Plin. 24, 15, 86, § 136: “color in luteum languescens,” id. 27, 13, 109, § 133.— Esp., the yolk of an egg: “lutea ex ovis quinque columbarum,” Plin. 30, 15, 49, § 141. —
B. Flame-colored, of the veil of a bride (v. flammeus), Luc. 2, 361; cf. Plin. 21, 8, 22, § 46; Cat. 61, 10.—
Fine as is, but candidus and ater mean shining white and dull black, as opposed to the earlier albus and niger, which mean dull white and shining black.Prūna est calida et candida. A live coal is hot and glowing.
Carbō frīgidus et āter. A dead coal is cold and black.
I see, from Lewis & Short, that this can mean rhinoceros (although I wasn't able to follow the link to a source text where it does), but contemporary translations into several languages all go with unicorn, so I would too.Ūnicornis est ferum animal, A rhinoceros is a fierce animal.
Here and everywhere in the document, I don't see the need to insert "is" when the Latin omits "est"; the English is as valid as the Latin without it. Comenius varies his phrasing, such as by omitting "est," to keep the text from sounding monotonous; why not do the same in English?Vacca mānsuētum, A cow is a tame [animal].
"Forth" should be "fourth."Quārtus quīntō, sextus septimō prior; The forth is prior to the fifth, the sixth to the seventh;
Apparently the term refers to derivatives in general, there also being denominatives derived from adjectives. The etymology is not what it may seem.Dēnōminātīva. Denominatives. A grammar term referring to words that derive from their noun form.
To mirror the word order, how about "a ducat of gold"? And similarly for the rest.Ducātus aureus, A golden ducat,
"Lights" sounds really weird. If you're doing it to avoid repeating "shines," how about "The sun shines. The moon gleams"?Sōl lūcet. The sun lights.
Lūna splendet. The moon shines.
Should be "Lightning lightnings."Fulgur fulgurat. Lightning strikes (as lightning). Lighting lightnings, to make up a verb.
Should be "gardener."Holitor culīnae serit holera: A kitchen-gardner plants vegetables.
I think we always say "hops" in English, even though the dictionary has the singular as "hop."Tandem cannabim et lupulum. Finally, hemb and a hop.
I am dubious. First, he contrasts animals with plants. The only mention of plants comes before, not after, this mention of "animal." Also, while I don't want to trawl through Aristotle right now, yet Wikipedia's Animal article has, "Aristotle divided the living world between animals and plants." Furthermore, Aristotle calls animals ζῷα, which refers specifically to beasts. Finally, my dictionaries don't provide evidence that animal includes plants either.Lapis iacet. A stone lies (on the ground).
Stirps stat. A plant stands.
Animal sē movet. An animal moves itself. An animal is anything that has an anima, that is, a soul in the Aristotelian sense, a principle of life. Hence, plants count as animals.
Should be "nightingale."Alauda, acanthis, carduēlis, fringilla,
līnāria, luscinia cantillant in caveā. A lark, a goldfinch, a finch, a red-breasted robin, a common linnet, [and] a nightengale chirp in a bird cage.
Should be "by," should end with a full stop.Quod sternūtandō purgātur. Which be sneezing is purged
Should be "breathes."Pulmō respīrat. A lung breaths.
Should be "hollow."Volā prehendimus. With the hallow of the hand we hold.
I think this would be clearer if you said "above it."Tergum habet superne scapulās. The back has above the shoulder blades.
How about making recordor "recall" or "recollect"?Memoria meminit. The memory remembers.
Et sī quid oblīta est, recordātur. And if it has forgotten something, it remembers it.
Add a full stop.Sed saepe fallitur. But it is often deceived
Should read "Twisted."Spīrās et placentās praeter obeliās et teganitās. Twiseted cakes and normal cakes besides rolls and pancakes.
Typo: "sasauge" twice.In ollā offās, halecēs, petasōnēs, tomācula, apexabōnēs, aliaque farcīmina: In a pot morsels, herrings, sasauge, liver-sasuage, and other sasuages:
The English word is "capon."Assat in veribus anatēs, capōs, perdīcēs et turdōs. He roasts ducks, capos, partridges, and thrushes on spits. A capo is a castrated rooster.
I think more common is "dray," but even better would be "sleigh," no need for the note.Cum vehit onera currū aut trahā. When it bears burdens by a wagon or drag. A traha is essentially a sleigh or something that is pulled along the ground without wheels.
Should be "spins." Also, I can't find "net" excapt as derived from "nō," "I swim."Netrix ad cōlum net ē līnō. A spinstress at the distaff spind out of the flax.
I would prefer "greaves" or "leggings."Sūtor suit calceōs et ocreās ex coriō et alūta. A cobbler cobbles shoes and shinguards from hide and soft leather.
"Uses."Lignārius asciat asciā. The carpenter cuts with an axe.
Ūtiturque dolābrā et terebrā. And use a pickaxe and a borer.
Although the wording is similar to Robotham's translation, this doesn't sound like proper modern English. I suggest "If sitting wearies you."Sī tē sessiōnis taedet, oportet spatiārī. If it wearies you of sitting, it is necessary to go for a walk.
See net, neo, nere, nevi.Should be "spins." Also, I can't find "net" except as derived from "nō," "I swim."
Lewis & Short give that as the figurative definition, but define it in space as a. Following after, i.e. after, behind; b. Following an extension in space, i. e. by, along.Secundum flūmen facile est natāre. Downstream it is easy to swim. Lit. according to the river.
Adversus illud impossibile. Upstream it is impossible. Lit. against that.
I think this is a typo for "must not be."Colloquia latīna et exāmina nōn sunt abrogonda. Latin conversations and exams must to be abrogated.
"or an."Pictor effigiem vel imāginem pingit. A painter paints a picture or and image.
"a little below."Vērum dē iīs paulō īnfrā. But concerning these a little lower.
Add a full stop.Vītricus et noverca cōgunt prīvignōs. A step-father and step-mother compel their step-children
I think some kind of conjunction must be missing here.Ut rēx scēptrum teneat in regnō regnet. That a king may wield his scepter reign in his kingdom.
I suggested “downstream” and “upstream” above (the former to replace “according”), but English is not my native language. In Finnish we say “with the river” and “against the river”. I cannot commentate on minute stylistic matters.imd wrote:Lewis & Short give that as the figurative definition, but define it in space as a. Following after, i.e. after, behind; b. Following an extension in space, i. e. by, along.Secundum flūmen facile est natāre. Downstream it is easy to swim. Lit. according to the river.
Adversus illud impossibile. Upstream it is impossible. Lit. against that.
How about, "Following the river, it is easy to swim. Against it, impossible."
I wonder what bedwere's native language is.bedwere wrote:creative commons immages from Wikipedia.
I'm Italian. and I type as fast as a Ferrari!mwh wrote:I wonder what bedwere's native language is.bedwere wrote:creative commons immages from Wikipedia.
Yes, you’re right, my apologies. I derived the length from Greek (ὀρείχαλκος), which should give Latin an ī. However, for some reason it is ĭ, as Verg. Aen. 12,87 shows:imd wrote:orichalceus should have a short i, as it's derived from orichalcum, which has a short i in Latin according to my dictionaries.
This is a difficult question, which I should have problematised more clearly. It derives of course from testis. The development must have been *trĭstis > *tr̥stis > *terstis > testis or something quite close to this. Did the stage *terstis > testis lengthen the e or not?imd wrote:testimōnium should have a short e, according to my dictionaries.