Comic based on the dialogue by Jakob Gretser: Mutatio Calami

[Viviparidus]

Salvete! Our beloved bedwere introduced a set of lively dialogues in a wonderful grammer book written back in 17c to me as my potential project,

colloquia ista a Pontiano humanista conscripta ac Graece reddita
https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=ylc ... &q&f=false

[EDITED AND ADDED]
Completed version: with Greek-Latin side-by-side (311KB, click and the full sized picture opens)


which I found perfect to be put into comic strips so that hopefully some beginners might naturally be dragged into the flow of the conversation enjoying the comic, and learn.

As a beginner myself, however, I may have made errors understanding the situation. For instance, in the 8th window, I was puzzled by the word "glossulis" in the following context.

Tantummodo versus aliquot a Praeceptore post horam explanandos: ut nimirum glossulis(???) interserere queam; nam retinere eas ob tenuitatem memoriae non possum.

As my dictionary, Oxford, even Perseus doesn't seem to have "glossula/e" or any likely word, I for now changed it into more common "glossis," ablative plural of "glossa, ae, f" But not sure at all.[edited: bedwere advived me it's dimunitive. Fixed it. Thanks bedwere, and my apology to Father Jakob.]

Any suggestion and/or correction would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!　[Also fixed: Yesterday I accidentally uploaded a big, unoptimized file of 390KB. Sorry! Now it's 183KB.]

[bedwere]

Wonderful, Viviparidus! It brings so much life to the text! May I add the Greek translation?

As for glossula, it is a diminutive of glossa, as found in Forcellini.

It occurred to me that you may also like Lucian's Dialogues of the Gods. Although the original is in Greek, a version in Latin can be found here.

[Viviparidus]

Thank you, bedwere, for your kind words and the advice! Diminutive, aha! Never occurred to me. Thank you thank you! I quickly fixed it. I hope kind Father Jakob would forgive my rude correction.

Of course you can... immo, I'm begging you to help me with Greek! I meant to do it myself, as having Greek and Latin side-by-side is one of the beauties of the original work, but with my ability, just typing out the text alone is quite a challenge.

To save your labor, here's the strip without words. If you have started already, my apology, because last night I accidentally uploaded an unoptimized file of 390KB. The file below has been shrunk to 140KB, as well as the fixed file with "glossulis." Thanks again and in advance.

http://www.satindesign.com/tkt/dialogus ... rbis32.png

Thank you also for the url of another set of fun dialogues. I always dig school jokes for some unknown reasons, but drawing Greek gods would be fun, too!

[bedwere]

Here is the Greek, and my compliments again!

[Viviparidus]

Thanks, bedwere, you're quick! Now it's my chance to learn Greek fun way.

[daivid]

This looks excellent. However I am finding it very hard going. Does there exist a translation? The further I read the more uncertain I become and it would be good to check things.

I tried putting the Latin into Google translate but clearly Google Latin is not up to the job because it didn't make an awful lot of sense .

[bedwere]

The author of the dialogue is Jacobus Pontanus, S.J. in case you want to search further. There seems to be an initiative to create a translation.

http://www.fordham.edu/info/21882/resea ... 6/classics

But why not posting your translation on Textkit?

[daivid]

But why not posting your translation on Textkit?

Because I am finding the Greek too hard to translate.

[Viviparidus]

Thank you, daivid, for your response. Sorry I haven't noticed sooner. bedwere, thank you, for your help and the information.

I could post my own translation, as I have it in my head anyway. That done, however, future readers wouldn't struggle on their own.

When I started learning English, I read a lot of picture books, such as Pooh, hoping the nice pictures to help me through the story. Here I'm hoping something similar to happen to my fellow members. So I'd like to let it stand as it is now.

But if my pictures are not helpful enough to you, please feel free to tell me where you get lost and I might be able to explain the situation or fix it, if turned out to be bad or wrong.

[daivid]

Thank you, daivid, for your response. Sorry I haven't noticed sooner. bedwere, thank you, for your help and the information.

I could post my own translation, as I have it in my head anyway. That done, however, future readers wouldn't struggle on their own.

When I started learning English, I read a lot of picture books, such as Pooh, hoping the nice pictures to help me through the story. Here I'm hoping something similar to happen to my fellow members. So I'd like to let it stand as it is now.

But if my pictures are not helpful enough to you, please feel free to tell me where you get lost and I might be able to explain the situation or fix it, if turned out to be bad or wrong.

The pictures are indeed a great help. And unfortunately its not one specific thing but more a feeling that I am more and more on shaky ground as I read on. What I would really appreciate is a translation of the Greek so I could check that I really understand the constructions being used.

EDIT And the pictures are not just helpful in that they illustrate the meaning but also add extra liveliness to the dialogue.

[seneca2008]

This looks Fun. Daivid why don't you just ask some specific questions. The syntax doesn't look difficult is it a matter of vocabulary? I had to look up "theca" (and θήκη).

Excellent! By the way Viviparidus and bedwere I do enjoy your exchanges on the weather. Do you both imitate Cicero's letters in style. It feels like I am overhearing snippets.

[daivid]

This looks Fun. Daivid why don't you just ask some specific questions. The syntax doesn't look difficult is it a matter of vocabulary? I had to look up "theca" (and θήκη).

Less common words unless they completely dominate don't give me a problem as they are easy enough to look up. I did have have a problem with frame 3 but when I went over it again I checked a word I was 100% sure I knew and discovered I didn't so just deciding to ask the question got me to the point that I didn't need to ask it.

My translation of frame 4 still has something seriously wrong with it - this is what I have:

But as the proverb to speak, I have not one the-ones-which have been supplied to you all the time I am watching.

And what vengeful-spirit/meriting-vengence-wretch that suspicion inserted into you (ie into your mind)

[bedwere]

Excellent! By the way Viviparidus and bedwere I do enjoy your exchanges on the weather. Do you both imitate Cicero's letters in style. It feels like I am overhearing snippets.

I'm flattered. Thanks! By the way, everybody is free to join in at any time.

My translation of frame 4 still has something seriously wrong with it - this is what I have:

But as the proverb to speak, I have not one the-ones-which have been supplied to you all the time I am watching.

And what vengeful-spirit/meriting-vengence-wretch that suspicion inserted into you (ie into your mind)

ἀλλ' ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν, μηδένας ἔχω, οὕς σοι κεχρημένους πάντα χρόνον τηρήσῃς.

ἔπος does not have the definite article.
Why "one"? What number is μηδένας ? Notice that there is a comma afterwards.
What person and mood is τηρήσῃς ?

καὶ τίς ἀλάστωρ εἰς ταύτην ὑποψίαν ἐνέβαλέ σε;

εἰς goes with ταύτην ὑποψίαν, not with σε

[daivid]

I still don't get it. The best I can do after your help is:

But as α proverb to speak, I have nothing- that to which have been supplied to you all the time you saw.

I really don't understand what οὕς is doing
Could ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν, mean "to coin a phrase" ?

And what vengeful-spirit/meriting-vengence-wretch in regard to that suspicion inserted into you

EDIT
I really do feel completely out of my depth with this.

[seneca2008]

Daivid I suggest you look more carefully at the dictionary. If you look up ἔπος you will find "ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν almost, practically, qualifying a too absolute expression"

[Viviparidus]

The pictures are indeed a great help. And unfortunately its not one specific thing but more a feeling that I am more and more on shaky ground as I read on. What I would really appreciate is a translation of the Greek so I could check that I really understand the constructions being used.

EDIT And the pictures are not just helpful in that they illustrate the meaning but also add extra liveliness to the dialogue.

Thank you, daivid, for your kind words about the pictures. I'm encouraged. Now that it's clear I can't be any of your help, as my Greek is even worse than just poor, I'll leave it to Greek masters among us (thank you, bedwere, seneca2008!) and go back to one of the dialogues by Lucian.

As far as Latin is concerned, I too found some of the common words in this series of dialogues deceiving, as they're not used in the common way, and I ended up looking up most of the words in the end.

I hope you'd find Lucian's more enjoyable, as they're originally written in Greek and classical.

This looks Fun. Daivid why don't you just ask some specific questions. The syntax doesn't look difficult is it a matter of vocabulary? I had to look up "theca" (and θήκη).

Excellent! By the way Viviparidus and bedwere I do enjoy your exchanges on the weather. Do you both imitate Cicero's letters in style. It feels like I am overhearing snippets.

Salve, seneca2008! Thank you for your kind words and help. I second bedwere. Please do feel free to stop by any time, amabo te!

[daivid]

Daivid I suggest you look more carefully at the dictionary. If you look up ἔπος you will find "ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν almost, practically, qualifying a too absolute expression"

EDIT-EDIT
Seneca I owe a big thanks for sorting out my problem with ἔπος and an even bigger apology for not checking who I was replying to. I slept badly last night and that seems to have affected me more than I realized.

EDIT-2 Bedwere, it was you who I did intend to reply and now rereading it I am now wondering whether I should have worded it as I did. I do think my question is worth looking at but I also don't want to over look the time you have taken to produce the Greek. So though I don't want to withdraw the question I apologize for the tone.

Yes I did find it when I knew what I was looking for. I don't think you appreciate how difficult you are making the Greek. When I something as hard as that I get a failure to process and to recognize the possibility of an idiom becomes quite beyond me. This is particularly so because the meaning of the idiom is especially far removed from the individual words and ἔπος already has multiple meanings. Is there really no single word that you could have used - σχεδόν perhaps?

I suppose I'm really asking what is the Greek version is for? The very medium, that is to say a cartoon, gives the impression that easy comprehensible input is on offer. And isn't that what is lacking?

[seneca2008]

Daivid I hope you are feeling better.

Bedwere has kindly transcribed the Greek from a 17 century text. Any complaints about the text have to be addressed to an author now long dead.

The Greek is harder than it looks, so do not despair. To translate this kind of text you have to hold on to the central idea that it does make sense!

If I can answer on Bedwere's behalf I think the purpose of the cartoon is to energise what might have been quite a dry exchange on the page to something which is very vivid. Even if you cannot grasp every word, you can follow what is happening in the dialogue. Slowly you will be able to piece it together.

Ask questions and we can try to answer them. We are here to help each other.

[seneca2008]

Smythe has this:

E. Absolute Infinitive
2012

Verbs of Saying.—ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν, ὡς εἰπεῖν so to speak, almost; (ὡς) ἁπλῶς εἰπεῖν, ὡς συνελόντι ( cross1497) εἰπεῖν, ὡς (ἐν βραχεῖ or) συντόμως εἰπεῖν to speak briefly, concisely; ὡς ἐπὶ πᾶν εἰπεῖν, τὸ σύμπαν εἰπεῖν speaking generally; σχεδὸν εἰπεῖν so to say, almost (paene dixerim); σὺν θεῷ εἰπεῖν in God's name; and so ὡς with λέγειν, φράζειν, εἰρῆσθαι, as ὡς ἐν τύπῳ εἰρῆσθαι in general. Examples: ἀληθές γε ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν οὐδὲν εἰρήκα_σιν not one word of truth, I may say, did they utter P. A. 17a, ἀγαθὸν μὲν ἁπλῶς εἰπεῖν οὐδὲν γέγονε τῇ πόλει in a word the State gained no advantage Dinarchus 1.33.

Do you see that the first bubble in frame 4 is a question?

[bedwere]

Thanks to all!

[daivid]

Daivid I hope you are feeling better.

No, worse because now I realize how completely I was in the wrong - but I should be feeling bad.

Bedwere has kindly transcribed the Greek from a 17 century text. Any complaints about the text have to be addressed to an author now long dead.

The Greek is harder than it looks, so do not despair. To translate this kind of text you have to hold on to the central idea that it does make sense!
.

I jumped to the conclusion that Bedwere had translated from the Latin and that the choice of phrasing was his.

So to Bedwere:

Given I was completely wrong on that, Bedwere, please accept my complete apology.

[bedwere]

Accepted for sure. I only wish I could write Greek as Gretser!

[mahasacham]

ἀλλ' ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν, μηδένας ἔχω, οὕς σοι κεχρημένους πάντα χρόνον τηρήσῃς.

But, so to speak, I have none, you keep for ever [in reference to all time??] those that have been lent to you

The "πάντα χρόνον τηρήσῃς" seems odd to me. Does he mean that the pencils he lent have been kept for ever or that he always tends to keep the pencils. I have seen the "πάντα χρόνον" around a lot in stuff I have read and I usually assume πάντα χρόνον = ἀεί. What exactly does this mean?

Its an accusative adverbial phrase....right? Or is it an accusative of extent of time?

[bedwere]

ἀλλ' ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν, μηδένας ἔχω, οὕς σοι κεχρημένους πάντα χρόνον τηρήσῃς.

But, so to speak, I have none, you keep for ever [in reference to all time??] those that have been lent to you

The "πάντα χρόνον τηρήσῃς" seems odd to me. Does he mean that the pencils he lent have been kept for ever or that he always tends to keep the pencils. I have seen the "πάντα χρόνον" around a lot in stuff I have read and I usually assume πάντα χρόνον = ἀεί. What exactly does this mean?

Its an accusative adverbial phrase....right? Or is it an accusative of extent of time?

οὕς σοι κεχρημένους is one block.

I have none, which, having been lent to you, you may keep all the time.

I guess it's a bit of a Latin like construction. I would have translated it with ὥστε and infinitive.

[Viviparidus]

As there seems no particular pictures to be fixed, I glued two versions into one, Greek and Latin, side by side, just like the original book. Isnt' it wonderful? Surely helpful to those who want to learn both tongues. Like me. Thanks bedwere, to help me make this happen. Without your help, I'd most likely still busy struggling with `῾´῏ etc.

I'll put the same image link to the first post, too, so that those who first look into this thread would find the complete version quickly. I used the image link, because the glued file is too large to be rendered in the post here, and big in byte size, too.

Completed version: with Greek-Latin side-by-side (311KB, click and the full sized picture opens)


Well. I feel guilty for confusing daivid, by posting this project here, "Composition" thread, when neither I nor bedwere actually composed any sentence. This project here indeed could be misleading.

I did think of posting this in "Learning Latin" and "Learning Greek" respectively, but I had a second thought and put it here, because here both languages could stand together no problem.

By the way the next dialogue, this time Lucian's, as I said before, is almost ready. But after looking at what my decision caused [edited for a grammatical error] here, I'm hesitant and thus seek everyone's opinion.

Should it be

1) submitted here, the composition thread again.

2) separated and submitted in the respective thread; Greek and Latin without the completed version.

3) respectively submitted in the respective thread, but the completed version should be added to both.

4) I have a better idea!

Any suggestion would be deeply appreciated, thanks!

[bedwere]

I'd keep it here, my friend. Don't feel bad about the confusion: it's probably inevitable with this kind of medium. It's all over and now we know. Looking forward to more great comics from you!

[seneca2008]

I agree. The comics are great. Thanks very much

[daivid]

ἀλλ' ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν, μηδένας ἔχω, οὕς σοι κεχρημένους πάντα χρόνον τηρήσῃς.

But, so to speak, I have none, you keep for ever [in reference to all time??] those that have been lent to you

The "πάντα χρόνον τηρήσῃς" seems odd to me. Does he mean that the pencils he lent have been kept for ever or that he always tends to keep the pencils. I have seen the "πάντα χρόνον" around a lot in stuff I have read and I usually assume πάντα χρόνον = ἀεί. What exactly does this mean?

Its an accusative adverbial phrase....right? Or is it an accusative of extent of time?

Thanks now it makes sense. Very much appreciated.

And I googled πάντα χρόνον which eventually took me to Hdt. 1.85.4. This was where the dumb from birth son recovered his speech at the critical moment. Subsequently: μετὰ δὲ τοῦτο ἤδη ἐφώνεε τὸν πάντα χρόνον τῆς ζόης.

Well. I feel guilty for confusing daivid, by posting this project here, "Composition" thread, when neither I nor bedwere actually composed any sentence. This project here indeed could be misleading.

The blame is entirely mine but it was very generous of you to suggest otherwise.

[Viviparidus]

Thanks all, for your response. I'll before long post next dialogue here.