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Ben-Hur Translation Page 2: Ben-Hur and Messala Clash!

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Ben-Hur Translation Page 2: Ben-Hur and Messala Clash!

Postby bedwere » Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:00 pm

Thank you for your help!


Page 2

Messala the Roman, and Ben-Hur, of a noble Jewish family, had been boyhood friends in Jerusalem, where Messala’s father was an official of the empire …

Messala Romanus et Benhur, generosus Judæus, cum pueri erant, fuerant amici Jerosolymis, ubi pater Messalæ magistratus Cæsaris erat.

Μεσσάλας ὁ Ῥωμαῖος καὶ Βενὼρ ὁ εὐγενὴς Ἰουδαῖος, παῖδες ὄντες, ἐγεγόνεσαν φίλοι ἐν τοῖς Ἱεροσολύμοις, ὅπου ὁ πατὴρ τοῦ Μεσσάλα ἄρχων Καίσαρος ἦν.

I’ve taken enough of your insults, Messala! There was no such poison in your nature before you left for school in Rome five years ago.

Sat contumeliis tuis adfectus sum, o Messala! Nec vero tale virus inerat in indole tua antequam Romam quinque abhinc annos discessisti in gymnasium.

Ἅλις ὕβρισμαι ὑπὸ σοῦ, ὦ Μεσσάλα. Οὐ μὴν τοιοῦτος ἰὸς ἐνῆν τῇ φύσει σου πρὶν εἰς τὴν Ῥώμην πρὸ πέντε ἐτῶν ἀπῆλθες εἰς τὸ γυμνάσιον.

Of course I’m different! All men change, but a Jew, never!

Utique mutatus sum! Omnes enim mutantur, nullo autem modo Judæi!

Ἤλλαγμαι δήπου ἔγωγε. Πάντες μὲν γὰρ ἀλλάσσονται, οὐδέποτε οἱ Ἰουδαῖοι.

Wait a minute! I haven’t finished with you!

Mane! Nondum confeci tecum!

Μεῖνον. Οὔπω διεπραξάμην μετά σου.

No, we had better part. Your Roman boasting drives me to hate you!

Immo melius est nos digredi. Nam Romanus glorians cogis ut te oderim!

Ἀλλ' ἄμεινόν ἐστιν ἡμᾶς ἀπελθεῖν. Σὺ γὰρ καυχώμενος ἅτε Ῥωμαῖος ἀναγκάζεις με μισεῖν σε.

Don’t be a fool, Ben-Hur! Cast aside these Jewish traditions and be like me-a Roman! You don’t have to be an underdog!

Ne stultus sis, o Benhur! Traditione Judæorum rejecta, adsimulare mihi Romano. Non enim oportet te inferiorem esse.

Μὴ μώραινε, ὦ Βενώρ. Ἀποβαλὼν τὴν παράδοσιν τῶν Ἰουδαίων ὁμοιώθητι ἐμοῖ Ῥωμαίῳ ὄντι. Οὐ γὰρ δεῖ σε ἡσσᾶσθαι.

You are the bigger fool, Messala! There were masters of Judea before the heathen Romans came, but Judea has outlived them all! What has been will be again!

Tu stultior es, o Messala! Aderant quidem domini Judææ antequam gentiles Romani venissent, Judæa autem superfuit omnibus! Ideo quod fuit iterum erit!

Σὺ μᾶλλον μωραίνεις, ὦ Μεσσάλα. Παρῆσαν μὲν γὰρ κύριοι τῆς Ἰουδαίας πρὶν οἱ ἐθνικοὶ Ρωμαῖοι ἦλθον, ἡ δὲ Ἰουδαία περιῆν πάντων. Καὶ δὴ τὰ γεγενημένα πάλιν αὖθις γενήσεται.

Impossible! Rome is now the world. Join with me and become a soldier of the empire. We’ll rise to power and mastery over millions of your people!

Numquam hoc fiet, nunc Roma est mundus. Ideo, mihi adjunctus, fias miles Cæsaris. Surgemus enim in potestatem et imperium multitudinis populi tui!

Οὐ μὴ τοῦτο γένηται, νῦν Ῥώμη ὁ κόσμος. Προσθέμενος οὖν ἐμοί, γενοῦ στρατιώτης Καίσαρος. Ἀναστησόμεθα γὰρ εἰς ἐξουσίαν καὶ κράτος τοῦ πλήθους τοῦ λαοῦ σου.

Never! As a Roman you may fight for Rome. I am a Jew and all Romans are my enemies. I fight against Rome--for freedom!

Minime! Tibi quidem licet Romano pugnare pro Roma. Mihi autem Judæo omnes Romani inimici. Pugno ergo contra Romam ac pro libertate!

Οὐδαμῶς. Σοὶ μὲν ἔξεστι Ῥωμαίῳ ὄντι μάχεσθαι ὑπὲρ Ῥώμης. Ἐμοὶ δὲ Ἰουδαίῳ ὄντι πάντες οἱ Ῥωμαῖοι ἐχθροί εἰσιν. Μάχομαι ἄρα κατὰ τῆς Ῥώμης τε καὶ ὑπὲρ τῆς ἐλευθερίας.

Stubborn fool! I offer you friendship and you leave me a bitter foe. Soon you will be down on your knees begging for mercy! Watch out, Ben-Hur! I’ll put you in your place.

Contumax et stulte! Ego quidem præbeo tibi amicitiam. Tu autem me relinquis acerbum inimicum. Cito nixus genibus misericordiam implorabis! Cave, Benhur! Nam deponam te.

Αὔθαδες καὶ μωρέ. Ἐγὼ μὲν παρέχω σοι φιλίαν. Σὺ δέ μ’ ἀπωσάμενος πεποίηκας ἐχθρὸν πικρόν. Ταχὺ δ' ἐπὶ γόνασιν ὢν ἔλεος παραιτήσῃ. Φύλαξαι, Βενώρ. Καθελῶ γάρ σε.

You too, Messala! Let Rome beware of a persecuted people. The day will come when Rome will be no more, and the chosen race of God shall rule as is our right!

Tu quoque, Messala! Et Roma caveat genus injuriis oneratum. Ecce enim dies veniet cum Roma non erit et nos, populus electus Dei, dominabimur sicut nos decet!

Καὶ σύ, Μεσσάλα. Καὶ Ῥώμη φυλαξάσθω λαὸν τὸν ἀδικούμενον. Διότι ἰδοὺ ἡμέρα ἔρχεται καὶ οὐκέτι ἔσται ἡ Ῥώμη καὶ ἡμεῖς, τὸ γένος ὑπὸ τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐκλεκτόν, κυριεύσομεν ὥσπερ πρέπει ἡμῖν.

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Page 1
Last edited by bedwere on Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:42 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 2: Ben-Hur and Messala clash!

Postby bedwere » Mon Oct 05, 2015 12:38 am

Well, nobody said anything and I went ahead. The layout of the Greek could be better, but it'll do for now. I don't want to use a smaller font.

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Ἑλληνιστί
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Last edited by bedwere on Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:44 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 2: Ben-Hur and Messala clash!

Postby mwh » Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:11 am

Too late, it seems, but just a few suggestions, glancing through.

“quum pueri essent”
Surely indic is called for.

“discedisti” discessisti

“ὑπό σου.” I don’t think enclitic pronouns can stand after prepositions. I’d write ὑπὸ σοῦ ὕβρισμαι, or σοὶ ὕβρισμαι.

δήπου postpositive.

paulisper too literal, better dispensed with. Likewise ολιγον.

“Non enim negotium confeci tecum!” Better “Nondum confeci tecum”?

Οὐ γὰρ τὸ πρᾶγμα διέπραξα σύν σοι doesn’t really work. (“I didn’t complete the business along with you.”)

“oderim te!” te oderim better order, “you” not emphatic.

“Ῥωμαῖος γὰρ ὢν καὶ καυχώμενος ἀναγκάζεις με εἰς τὸ μισεῖν σε.”
E.g. συ γαρ καυχωμενος ατε Ρωμαιος αναγκαζεις με μισειν σε.

“Ὅ τι οὖν γενόμενον αὖθις ἔσται” ungrammatical. Try e.g. και δη τα γεγενημενα παλιν αυθις γενησεται.

“quia Roma caput mundi” weak. E.g. asyndetonic “nunc Roma est mundus (totus)”?

“Προσθέμενος οὖν με”: ἐμοί

“Ἔξεστι μὲν σοὶ”: σοὶ μὲν ἔξεστι. Similarly “tibi quidem licet …”

“et Roma non erit amplius”: “cum Roma non erit” (without amplius)

“et populus Dei, electus Dei, dominabitur sicut nos decet!”
et nos, populus a Deo electus, dominabimur sicut decet. Similarly και ημεις, το γενος υπο του Θεου εκλεκτον, …

“οὐκ ἔσται Ῥώμη ἔτι”
ουκετι εσται ἡ Ρωμη

It’s all very stilted, but then so’s the English!
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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 2: Ben-Hur and Messala clash!

Postby bedwere » Tue Oct 06, 2015 10:55 am

Many thanks! It's not too late, because I can change the images with little effort. I'm on travel these days, so it will have to wait. I made a little pastiche by using the Septuagint and the Vulgate to translate the Ben-Hur's prophecy about the fall of Rome. That's way it sounds even odder there. There is page 1 here, which is not set in stone either.
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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 2: Ben-Hur and Messala clash!

Postby mwh » Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:35 pm

For “and you leave me a bitter foe” your Σὺ δ' ἀπολείπεις μου πικροῦ ἐχθροῦ γεγονότος won’t do. You might try something like σὺ δέ μ’ απωσάμενος πεποίηκας εχθρὸν πικρόν. (Assuming, as you do, that the b.f. is not B. but M.)

I’ll pass on p.1 if you don't mind. Kiddie comics are not really my thing. But it certainly makes a good exercise. The comparative aspect is perhaps the most valuable thing about it—it’s highly instructive to have Greek and Latin set side by side. I felt as I read through that you might be allowing your Latin undue influence over your Greek. But I could be wrong about that. My suggestions were just off the cuff (don't take them as set in stone either!), and didn't cover everything.

PS For Ben Hur how about Ὑρράδης?
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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 2: Ben-Hur and Messala clash!

Postby bedwere » Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:58 am

Are you sure about the dative for Προσθέμενος? It says c. acc. pers.
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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 2: Ben-Hur and Messala clash!

Postby testsuda » Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:03 pm

Dear all,

I am following you and re-translate by myself for learning

[1]

Messala Romanus et Benhur, generosus Judæus, quum pueri essent, fuerant amici Jerosolymis, ubi pater Messalæ magistratus Cæsaris erat.

essent = imperfect subjunctive active, right? Why we used subjunctive here, could we use the aorist?

[2]

Ἅλις ὕβρισμαι ὑπό σου, ὦ Μεσσάλα. Οὐ μὴν τοιοῦτος ἰὸς ἐνῆν τῇ φύσει σου πρὶν εἰς τὴν Ῥώμην πρὸ πέμπτε ἐτῶν ἀπῆλθες εἰς τὸ διδασκαλεῖον.

Does [πρὸ] means "away", it links with the verb [ἀπῆλθες], together they mean: went away?

Or [πρὸ] is used in a parallel way with [πρὶν] = [before] in Rome [before] you went away 5 years ago into school?

Sincerely yours,
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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 2: Ben-Hur and Messala clash!

Postby mwh » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:39 pm

bedwere wrote:Are you sure about the dative for Προσθέμενος? It says c. acc. pers.

Sorry I didn’t explain. With acc. it means something more like “co-opting me,” “winning me over (to your side),” whereas it’s Messala who’s trying to win over BenHur. With dative it means to “side with” me (LSJ), to join my side and acquiesce in my views. That seems more appropriate here, for “Join with me.” You want not “getting me on your side” but “getting (yourself) on my side."
(Think of it this way: προσθεῖναι active “add (X to Y),” προσθέσθαι middle “add X[acc.] to oneself” or “add oneself to Y[dat].” You could compare the behavior of other θέσθαι compounds too.)

And I’d say you need the non-enclitic form of the pronoun: ἐμοί not μοι or με.

----------
testsuda wrote:[1]

Messala Romanus et Benhur, generosus Judæus, quum pueri essent, fuerant amici Jerosolymis, ubi pater Messalæ magistratus Cæsaris erat.

essent = imperfect subjunctive active, right? Why we used subjunctive here, could we use the aorist?

[2]

Ἅλις ὕβρισμαι ὑπό σου, ὦ Μεσσάλα. Οὐ μὴν τοιοῦτος ἰὸς ἐνῆν τῇ φύσει σου πρὶν εἰς τὴν Ῥώμην πρὸ πέμπτε ἐτῶν ἀπῆλθες εἰς τὸ διδασκαλεῖον.

Does [πρὸ] means "away", it links with the verb [ἀπῆλθες], together they mean: went away?

Or [πρὸ] is used in a parallel way with [πρὶν] = [before] in Rome [before] you went away 5 years ago into school?,

[1] is a good question. The subjunctive implies that it was because they were boys that the Roman and the Jew had been friends. That’s importing a lot into “boyhood friends.” As I suggested in my previous post, plain indicative is what’s called for, simply fixing the time they were friends.

In the Greek, παιδες οντες, the participle works well enough, but I'd prefer the time-specific ὅτε ἦσαν παιδες.

[2]
πρό means “in front of” or “before.” πρὸ πέντε ἐτῶν (πέμπτε should be πέντε) is literally “before five years” but in late Greek can be used to mean “five years ago.” Classical usage would be πεντε ετεσι προτερον (lit. “before by five years”).
The phrase is only an adverbial component of the πριν clause, it has no connection with the πριν as such.
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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 2: Ben-Hur and Messala clash!

Postby testsuda » Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:25 pm

Dear MWH

and all brothers...

Messala Romanus et Benhur, generosus Judæus, quum pueri essent, fuerant amici Jerosolymis, ubi pater Messalæ magistratus Cæsaris erat.

What you explained about Latin Subjunctive is very profound, I find it interesting. However, please kindly help me a little bit more at this point:

According to what I understand: The Subjunctive is used to describe somethings that are not fact, or somethings that are result of a particular condition

For example: he came here to meet her

The act of (coming here) is the condition to produce the act of (meeting her), so in Latin, the verb meet will be in subjunctive

Similarly for case of Ben Hur: when they were [*] boys, they were [**] friends

The act of (being boys) is the premise of the result of (being friends), so it must be [**] that will be subjunctive in Latin, right?

Sincerely yours,
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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 2: Ben-Hur and Messala clash!

Postby calvinist » Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:33 pm

testsuda wrote:According to what I understand: The Subjunctive is used to describe somethings that are not fact, or somethings that are result of a particular condition

I think all attempts to box the Latin Subjunctive into a simple definition fail, but there is a lot of truth to this statement. Don't try to "pin down" the Subjunctive, it will squirm out of your hands. It's best to think of it as wearing different hats and doing different things depending upon the situation. I personally think the best overall definition of the Subjunctive is that it marks subordination (which can imply cause, concession, purpose, etc.)
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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 2: Ben-Hur and Messala clash!

Postby bedwere » Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:33 am

Having returned home, I incorporated Michael's corrections (also giving up part of my pastiche). New images have also been uploaded.
Yes, I understand, Προσθέμενος ἐμοί now. Thanks!
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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 2: Ben-Hur and Messala clash!

Postby testsuda » Sat Oct 10, 2015 3:38 am

Thanks Brothers,

calvinist wrote:
testsuda wrote:
I think all attempts to box the Latin Subjunctive into a simple definition fail, but there is a lot of truth to this statement. Don't try to "pin down" the Subjunctive, it will squirm out of your hands. It's best to think of it as wearing different hats and doing different things depending upon the situation. I personally think the best overall definition of the Subjunctive is that it marks subordination (which can imply cause, concession, purpose, etc.)


Great knowledge, great benefit

Sincerely yours,
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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 2: Ben-Hur and Messala Clash!

Postby testsuda » Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:49 am

Dear all,

Here is my understanding:

[1]

adsimulare mihi Romano = make like me - Roman

adsimulare = pres passive imperative, right?

Why is it passive? I did not see it deponent in William Whitaker Dictionary

[2]

Non enim oportet te inferiorem esse.

= for it is not neccesary to better by you

te = comparative ablative, right?

Sincerely yours,
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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 2: Ben-Hur and Messala Clash!

Postby bedwere » Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:45 pm

testsuda wrote:Dear all,

Here is my understanding:

[1]

adsimulare mihi Romano = make like me - Roman

adsimulare = pres passive imperative, right?

Why is it passive? I did not see it deponent in William Whitaker Dictionary

[2]

Non enim oportet te inferiorem esse.

= for it is not neccesary to better by you

te = comparative ablative, right?

Sincerely yours,


1) It's passive. Be made similar to me, i.e. become like me.

2) No, it's accusative.

for it is not necessary that you be inferior.
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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 2: Ben-Hur and Messala Clash!

Postby testsuda » Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:29 pm

bedwere wrote:2) No, it's accusative.

for it is not necessary that you be inferior.


Dear Bedwere,

So it likes the formula of Redirected Speech, right?

Thanks so much

Sincerely yours,
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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 2: Ben-Hur and Messala Clash!

Postby bedwere » Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:45 pm

testsuda wrote:
Dear Bedwere,

So it likes the formula of Redirected Speech, right?

Thanks so much

Sincerely yours,


I couldn't say, since I'm not familiar with that terminology. You may want to check the Lewis and Short for more information.
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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 2: Ben-Hur and Messala Clash!

Postby mwh » Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:51 pm

Yes it works like indirect speech, acc. and infin.
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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 2: Ben-Hur and Messala Clash!

Postby testsuda » Tue Oct 13, 2015 2:09 am

Dear all,

Thanks so much

Yes, that is my mistake: Indirect Speech not "Redirect"

Sincerely yours,
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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 2: Ben-Hur and Messala Clash!

Postby daivid » Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:05 pm

bedwere wrote:[
Μεσσάλας ὁ Ῥωμαῖος καὶ Βενὼρ ὁ εὐγενὴς Ἰουδαῖος, παῖδες ὄντες, ἐγεγόνεσαν φίλοι ἐν τοῖς Ἱεροσολύμοις, ὅπου ὁ πατὴρ τοῦ Μεσσάλα ἄρχων Καίσαρος ἦν.


Is there a typo on the final image - that is on the down loadable pdf? Instead of ὅπου there is ὅπον.

EDIT
In the same line τοῦ seems to have had its u turned into a 'n'
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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 2: Ben-Hur and Messala Clash!

Postby daivid » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:01 pm

bedwere wrote:[

Ἅλις ὕβρισμαι ὑπὸ σοῦ, ὦ Μεσσάλα. Οὐ μὴν τοιοῦτος ἰὸς ἐνῆν τῇ φύσει σου πρὶν εἰς τὴν Ῥώμην πρὸ πέμπτε ἐτῶν ἀπῆλθες εἰς τὸ γυμνάσιον.

Also πέμπτε never got corrected to πέντε as Michael suggested below.
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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 2: Ben-Hur and Messala Clash!

Postby bedwere » Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:44 am

Thanks. I remember I corrected them. I must have made some mistake when I exported the png files. I'll fix the issues when I have the opportunity.
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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 2: Ben-Hur and Messala Clash!

Postby bedwere » Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:00 pm

The similar shape of the letters υ and ν is due to the Sans font provided by the Gimp, which I used to compose the text. Anyway, it should be fixed on archive.org and also on Lulu.
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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 2: Ben-Hur and Messala Clash!

Postby daivid » Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:13 am

bedwere wrote:The similar shape of the letters υ and ν is due to the Sans font provided by the Gimp, which I used to compose the text. Anyway, it should be fixed on archive.org and also on Lulu.


υ and ν do look very similar - if my Greek was better I would have probably seen what I knew ought to be there rather than what actually was. However, my version of Gimp allows you to insert text layers using utf8. You might check that that isn't possible for you.

(I use Linux so if you use Windows that might be a Windows issue)
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