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"antidisestablishmentarianism" in Ancient Greek

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 2:04 pm
by Markos
στηρίζω means to establish something, like, say, an official state church. στρηρισμός (compare στρηριγμός) might mean an establishing of such a church.. A more abstract noun, indicating an advocacy of establishing the church might be στρηρισμοσία. ἀστρηρισμοσία might suggest opposition to establishing a church and ἀνταστρηρισμοσία would in turn be opposition to this opposition. People who hold such a position might be
οἱ τῆς ἀνταστηρισμοσίας.
It has been pointed out that in the English word antidisestablishmentarianism, you have only a short root (sta) immersed in a bunch of formatives. Same thing in Greek, with essentially the same root (στη.)

Re: "antidisestablishmentarianism" in Ancient Greek

PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 5:00 pm
by daivid
Markos wrote:στρηρίζω means to establish something, like, say, an official state church. στρηρισμός (compare στρηριγμός) might mean an establishing of such a church.. A more abstract noun, indicating an advocacy of establishing the church might be στρηρισμοσία. ἀστρηρισμοσία might suggest opposition to establishing a church and ἀνταστρηρισμοσία would in turn be opposition to this opposition. People who hold such a position might be
οἱ τῆς ἀνταστηρισμοσίας.
It has been pointed out that in the English word antidisestablishmentarianism, you have only a short root (sta) immersed in a bunch of formatives. Same thing in Greek, with essentially the same root (στη.)


I get that your main point is to show how Ancient Greek word building works. However, "disestablishmentarianism" is not opposition to a church being established but advocacy of ending the Church of England's status as the official state (ie established) church. The establishment of the church goes back to Constantine so the Church of England was established before it even existed. Doesn't that change it a bit?

Also I am having trouble finding "στρηρίζω" in any dictionary.

Edit:
...unless you intended "στηρίζω"?

Re: "antidisestablishmentarianism" in Ancient Greek

PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:29 pm
by Markos
Yes, David, I meant στηρίζω, and I changed it in the original post. And yes, your analysis of the history behind the word is correct. The issue behind the word is of more relevance to you all across the pond, I think.

The Greek version, more or less an exact equivalent, is about half as long as the English.

Re: "antidisestablishmentarianism" in Ancient Greek

PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 9:41 pm
by daivid
Markos wrote:Yes, David, I meant στηρίζω, and I changed it in the original post. And yes, your analysis of the history behind the word is correct. The issue behind the word is of more relevance to you all across the pond, I think.

The Greek version, more or less an exact equivalent, is about half as long as the English.

The pond issue it seems to me changes the initial prefix. If I correctly understand the prefix α then ἀστρηρισμοσία means non-establishmentairianism. Disestablishment seems to me to require a more active prefix perhaps κατα on the lines of καταβαίνω? Hence καταστρηρισμοσία?

Re: "antidisestablishmentarianism" in Ancient Greek

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:57 am
by Markos
daivid wrote:If I correctly understand the prefix α then ἀστρηρισμοσία means non-establishmentairianism. Disestablishment seems to me to require a more active prefix perhaps κατα on the lines of καταβαίνω? Hence καταστρηρισμοσία?

mmm? καταστηρίζω just means to establish, so to the extent that καταστρηρισμοσία might mean being in favor of establishing the Church, it would sort of be a synonym for antidisestablishmentarianism. LSJ says that ἀναστηρίζω means "to set up firmly." Would ἀνακαταστρηρισμοσία be the RE-establishing of a (potentially) dis-established Church?

I thought about, but for some reason, rejected the more exact equivalent ἀντιδυστρηρισμοσία.

"'Twere to consider too curiously, to consider so."

Re: "antidisestablishmentarianism" in Ancient Greek

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:54 pm
by daivid
Markos wrote:mmm? καταστηρίζω just means to establish, so to the extent that καταστρηρισμοσία might mean being in favor of establishing the Church, it would sort of be a synonym for antidisestablishmentarianism. LSJ says that ἀναστηρίζω means "to set up firmly." Would ἀνακαταστρηρισμοσία be the RE-establishing of a (potentially) dis-established Church?

I thought about, but for some reason, rejected the more exact equivalent ἀντιδυστρηρισμοσία.

"'Twere to consider too curiously, to consider so."


Okay, having looked through my list of verbs, κατα doesn't look such an appropriate prefix. But why not δυσ? It isn't a very common prefix but seems more clearly opposite rather than vaugly neutral feel I get from α.

Re: "antidisestablishmentarianism" in Ancient Greek

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:22 pm
by Markos
daivid wrote:Okay, having looked through my list of verbs, κατα doesn't look such an appropriate prefix. But why not δυσ? It isn't a very common prefix but seems more clearly opposite rather than vaugly neutral feel I get from α.

I agree that δυσ- is better than α- (or κατα-.) It's just that I have a vague feeling (I need to look through LSJ more) that δυσστηριγμός might mean something closer to "poorly established" rather than "disestablished." Is there maybe another prefix that we might have missed?

The next assignment would be to use the word in a Greek sentence! No thanks! :D

Re: "antidisestablishmentarianism" in Ancient Greek

PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:02 am
by daivid
Markos wrote:I agree that δυσ- is better than α- (or κατα-.) It's just that I have a vague feeling (I need to look through LSJ more) that δυσστηριγμός might mean something closer to "poorly established" rather than "disestablished." Is there maybe another prefix that we might have missed?

I see what you mean about δυσ. After looking through the English dictionary for suitable words to look for in Greek it occurs to me that English doesn't really have a prefix for reverse a process. Other prefixes are drafted in on an ad hoc basis. Hence un- usually just means not- and only in a few words like undo does it actually mean reverse.
Ancient Greek seems to favor words that represent the physical movement involved. This is why καταβαινω misled me. When someone unhorses themselves they go down and so it is almost accidental that here it means to reverse the process of mounting a horse.
So perhaps απο-στηριγμός would work in the sense that disestablishment is the separation of the church from the state that is moving away from?

Markos wrote:The next assignment would be to use the word in a Greek sentence! No thanks! :D

That doesn't sound too difficult if you just mean writing an Ancient Greek sentence. The only reason why the Ancient Greeks would have had trouble with the concept is that religious institutions were so interwoven with the Polis that there must have been few who advocated the separation so antidisestablishmentarianism hardly had a reason to organize itself.

Re: "antidisestablishmentarianism" in Ancient Greek

PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:12 am
by Markos
daivid wrote:...perhaps απο-στηριγμός would work in the sense that disestablishment is the separation of the church from the state that is moving away from?

Yes, David, ἀπο- works well. I don't know why I did not think of that earlier. An ἐκκλησία ἀποστηριγμός would be a dis-established church. ἀστηριγμός would be a non-established Church (that's me--I am a Presbyterian) δυσστρηριγμὸς would be a wrongly-established Church. I'm not sure, but I think they may have had one of those at Salem.

So, antidisestablishmentarianism might be ἡ ἀντιαποστηριγμοσία. An advocate of such might be ὁ ἀντιαποστρηριγμότης.